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The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
A question about the temperatures: I always assumed (and have read) that the 165° mark is about food safety, i.e. killing bacteria. While the turkey breast may appear 'done' at 145°, that's still a 20° margin.
Having had a bout of food poisoning (not from anything home-made, fortunately) that resulted in losing 10 lbs over Christmas one year and fever-induced hallucinations, you'll forgive me for be cautious about undercooked food.
My own preference is to either break up the turkey, or to flip it. I've never made a bird heaver than 15 lbs - and that's easy enough to flip.
Use for pork bones?
I've also been told pork stock makes excellent french onion soup.
Pumpkin pie Cheesecake
You could also use a no-bake "cheesecake" filling, if you know a decent recipe that will firm up enough.. Bake your pie as chiffonade suggested above, but without unsnapping the pan. Once it's chilled mix the "cheesecake" filling and pour it on top. I also second chiffonade's suggestion about the chopped nuts.
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The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
Kenji, chefRobert -
Thanks for the info - I don't have a meat grinder (yet), but at least this gives me a goal for the next time I do a turkey.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
A question about the temperatures: I always assumed (and have read) that the 165° mark is about food safety, i.e. killing bacteria. While the turkey breast may appear 'done' at 145°, that's still a 20° margin.
Having had a bout of food poisoning (not from anything home-made, fortunately) that resulted in losing 10 lbs over Christmas one year and fever-induced hallucinations, you'll forgive me for be cautious about undercooked food.
My own preference is to either break up the turkey, or to flip it. I've never made a bird heaver than 15 lbs - and that's easy enough to flip.
Use for pork bones?
I've also been told pork stock makes excellent french onion soup.
Pumpkin pie Cheesecake
You could also use a no-bake "cheesecake" filling, if you know a decent recipe that will firm up enough.. Bake your pie as chiffonade suggested above, but without unsnapping the pan. Once it's chilled mix the "cheesecake" filling and pour it on top. I also second chiffonade's suggestion about the chopped nuts.
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
Thank you for pointing out the minimal role that osmosis actually has in this, and describing the actual workings of osmosis correctly - something nearly everyone on television has screwed up (even Alton Brown got it wrong on his brined turkey episode, I think... though it's been a while).
That said, I've done his brine for every turkey I've cooked in the last 5 or 6 years... and it's been awesome.
Serious Beer: Tasting Belgian Dubbels
Allagash (from Maine, I think) makes a pretty good Double as well. On the Belgian side, Corsendonk's Brown Ale is also nice.
Cookie Spreading Panic
I've never chilled my baking sheets, but definitely my dough. Also, it does depend on the fat you're using. I know you said you followed the recipe to a tee, but you definitely didn't substitute out butter for margarine, or something of that nature?
Cooking or Pastry classes you'd like to take
I'd love to take a general pastry class - my stuff tastes good, but I can never get a flaky crust, or one of many things that goes slightly off (but never affects the taste).
Also - cake decorating. I can use a pastry bag. Sort of. And I can get a cake iced. Sort of. But beyond the basics, I know nothing.
Beef short rib help
You don't really need to trim them unless there are huge hunks of fat. The only thing I ever trim is the membrane on the back of the ribs, but that's only after cooking. I don't recall that specific recipe - but every recipe I've done for short ribs, that's worked, involves about 3-4 hours of cooking (simmering, smoking, etc) which renders out the fat. How long did they cook for?
You might just be getting bad ribs. You said you got these from a local farm. Is that your regular source? I've seen some short ribs that are all fat - and others that are skinny little things. The best I've found are at an H-mart (Korean supermarket chain). Local? No, but damn good. They've got a good amount of intramuscular fat, without looking like a solid block of fat.
Also, I have to ask (because my wife often reminds me of it)... are you sure you're not just used to extremely lean meat? My wife doesn't generally like fatty meat, so if even a little of the fat isn't rendered (i.e. bacon has to be CRISPY), I hear about it... so lets also make sure that your expectations aren't too out of line.
Pages rolling down then up.... Make it stop
It's a 970x66 banner, but it's sitting out to the right of the page, instead of its proper location underneath the orange logo section.
I know these new OPA pushdown units are popular (I've made a few at work) - and you can specifically require them to only open on interaction... not automatically.
As far as the people using adblockers... sites like this are free because of advertising. Please don't block the ads on your favorite free sites.
Poblano Chiles
First, they'll freeze perfectly well - wash, dry and toss in a ziploc bag.
Second... green chili, green salsa, and pretty much anything you'd use a bell pepper for. They're not really that spicy, so you just get a tiny kick from them.
Ed Levine's Serious Diet, Week 86: Is 200 Pounds Out of My Reach?
While charts aren't 100% accurate, I remember the chart you posted earlier accounted for various builds. Are you still 'overweight,' even if you add 10% on to the heaviest build for your size? As much as everyone like to say "I have a heavy build" or "I'm big boned," normal variations in bone density are only going to count for a couple percent of your total weight. And if you have enough muscle to really throw the chart off, you're probably not looking at the chart in the first place.
Also, the last 10-15 pounds ARE the hardest to lose. Part of it's mental - you're more prone to slacking/backsliding. Part is that, at his point especially, you need to spend as much time building muscle as doing fat burning aerobic exercising. Part is that you're probably in much better shape, and simply need to do more/harder exercise to get more benefit. The last part is the simple embedded imperative to always have a fat store against "lean times" - and you're fighting deeply imbedded behavior - even to the point of hormones telling you to eat more.
It's hard, but it's doable. But I think at this point the worst thing is to get frustrated and give up.
(Note: I am not a doctor. But I've talked with doctors and personal trainers and compiled the above information in my own quest for weight loss. Like Ed, I'm stuck... I'm at 200 lbs, down from 245 lbs, about 10 months ago. I'm 6'2", and it IS obvious that I should lose more weight. Do I need to? No. But I'm not going to stop working towards my college weight - 190 lbs).
Classic Sliders at White Rose System in Linden, New Jersey
Lvn -
I agree totally. The plate photo doesn't do anything for me. All of the others? I'm glad it's lunchtime soon, because I'm hungry now.
Leftover Spareribs
They also make an excellent sleep aid if eating cold, late at night.
BBQ in/around Hickory, NC?
Thanks Alaina - I remember seeing the BBQ Trail site, but couldn't remember the name of it to find it in Google. I was about to say that Statesville is probably too far to go (we're driving down from NJ)... but it's actually right on the way. Guess we just found a pit stop!
Cook the Book: 'Serious Barbecue' by Adam Perry Lang
Greatest grilling success story? Smoking my own bacon, then smoking a pork butt for pulled pork a couple weeks later. The wife looked at me when I was discussing future smoking/grilling plans and said, "I may die weighing 300 lbs, and if I do, you are to blame. And I mean that in the best way possible, because I will die happy and full. And probably asleep from eating too much."
I'm pretty sure she meant it to be loving/romantic.
Serious Heat: Roasting Chiles the Alton Brown Way
Instead of the steamer, you can also go to the grill section and look for grates or something of that nature.
@mwainer - you'll have to throw them under the broiler, turning repeatedly. it's not as easy, but it works.
Ed Levine's Serious Diet, Week 59: How Much Should I Weigh?
Ed - I'm 6'2", and am down to 210 lbs (from 235-240 in November) thanks to a martial arts class I started taking, and slightly more careful eating. Will I hit my 'ideal' weight of just south of 180 lbs? Probably not. My goal is to hit 200. If I hit 190 (my college weight), I'll be ecstatic.
But the important thing is to be happy with what I've accomplished... but to remember that I can still do better.
Homemade liqueurs
Dissolve skittles in vodka overnight. Strain. I've never tried it myself, but friend swear it's good. Though I wouldn't use the super cheap stuff on it.
Cheesecake dilemma!
I actually use a recipe from a Williams-Sonoma book someone bought me as a gift (only adaptations have been increasing the butter and decreasing the cooking time for the crust). There are 4 packs of cheese (I think), in a 9" (I think) pan. I can't recall time/temp specifics either, but I believe it cooks @ 350 degrees for 1 hour 15 minutes. As Jerzee said, it will jiggle, but will set once cooled. No foil tenting, water baths or temperature changes.
Puffing, I've found, is a sign of overmixing - make sure your cream cheese, eggs, and whatever else is being added to the filling is room temperature - otherwise, it will take longer to mix, and you'll incorporate more air, causing it to puff and/or crack. As soon as it's incorporated, stop mixing.
Also, take it slow when cooling - like Jerzee, I let mine cool to room temperature prior to wrapping it and putting it in the fridge.
Ordering sushi: how much?
Also, at Morimoto's - you can simply hang on to your menu, and order more as your meal progresses. I've done this several times there, and I highly doubt they mind you spending more money on a meal, and not wasting any of the food.
What food will you not compromise on? Even if it means mucho $$$
Beer. Other than the occasional glass of wine (even then, I go for the semi-cheap stuff), it's the only alcohol in the house that we actually drink. The other stuff is basically for cooking only (and when drinking it, even the good stuff, all I taste is alcohol).
Fish. I tend to buy cheaper cuts of meat, and the organic chickens I can buy aren't THAT much more than the Perdue/Tyson chickens... but I've noticed a huge difference in fish with texture, flavor, etc... and as much as I love Wegmans, they have way too much 'colored' fish.
Otherwise... we've found 'good enough' olive oil, vinegars, canned tomatoes, canned tuna, etc in our local shops that don't break the budget.
Butchers near Trenton/Princeton, NJ?
I just thought I'd post an update to this:
I checked with both my local Shoprite and the Pennington Shoprite, and while both -could- order something like pork belly, they have to order by the case... and unless I could take a significant portion (or all) of said case, they wouldn't do it.
Wegmans was even less helpful, and would not special order it under any circumstances. Their basic selection leaves a lot to be desired in any case. What's there is good, but there's a lot missing.
Whole Foods never could give me an answer (but considering their prices on everything else at their meat counter, I wasn't holding out hope it'd be worth the cost).
I did however find something interesting: Ely Pork Products (elyporkproducts.com) in Newtown, PA. They said with a week's notice, they could get me pretty much any cut I wanted (though they're backed up right now with deer processing - so they aren't doing the slaughtering themselves). At least over the phone, they were very friendly, and more than happy to keep a few pounds of pork belly out of the bacon cure.
Hopefully I'll finish up the other stuff I have going on soon and will be able to swing by there and give them a shot.
The Icing vs. Frosting Debate
Perky -
I will happily take reduntant frosting. Especially if it's cream cheese based. In fact, I think I will start requiring redundant amounts of frosting on cakes in the future.
Drank, an 'Anti-Energy Drink'
You had me at 'hint of Dimetapp.' Seriously. The initial run of Mountain Dew Code Black (or whatever it was) tasted like slightly sour Dimetapp, and I couldn't get enough of it.
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
hey kenji, in your "how it works" section, second paragraph, you mention "cell walls." cell walls don't exist in turkeys, they have cell membranes...which you mentioned later on anyway.
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
Thank you so much for explaining in detail the process of brining. I brined my Thanksgiving turkey for the first time last year and had a great result- a flavorful juicy turkey!
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I think I'm going to go for this, but there's one problem. I have to have drumsticks for my dad. So I'm thinking I'll get a couple of turkey legs to cook along side the bird. Any tips on working out the timing? Maybe start the legs a little ahead of the stuffed breasts?
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I don't understand - why would anyone prefer a turkey over a suckling pig?
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@Aya
You're right - there was one year when the turducken was moist, but that took a heck of a lot of work to get it that way.
Short version:
The problem: chicken is inside duck is inside turkey. Chicken needs to cook to 145, duck is better at 125, turkey needs to be 145.
Solution:
1. Bone out chicken, stuff, wrap in cheesecloth, poach until 145.
2. Bone out duck. Stuff with cooked chicken. Wrap in cheesecloth, poach until 125.
3. bone out turkey, stuff with duck stuffed with chicken, sew up, roast in low oven until 145. Remove from oven and rest
4. Roast in hot oven until brown and crisp.
5. Carve and serve.
See? Pain in the butt.
@KevinB
The problem with the stuffing is that even if you precook it, juices from the turkey drip into it while the turkey is roasting, so you still need to get it to come up to at least 145 before you can pull the turkey out, which means taking the turkey a little higher.
Of course, as always, if you've been doing something for years and are happy with the results, then that's all that matters! It's a heck of a lot easier than all this rigmarole I put my bird through anyway...
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I never have to go to these lengths, and I still end up with moist white meat, fully cooked dark meat, and an honest-to-God stuffing. Two simple steps:
I make a stuffing out of pork sausage, celery, apples, bread, and spices. My simple solution to bacteria? Cook the sausage before you mix it in the stuffing. Problem solved - the stuffing still sucks up lots of flavour from the bird (and my recipe makes a ton, so we end up with dressing as well, which is still good, but definitely tastes different) but it's fully cooked.
Second step: soak a triple (at least) layer of cheesecloth in oil, oil the breast, and then place the cheesecloth over the breast. After the first 45 minutes of cooking, baste every 20-30 minutes, paying particular attention to the breast. This means basting about 6-8 times, depending, for 2-3 minutes a time - 12 to 24 minutes total, which is a lot less than the time needed to dismember or debone the bird in the methods above. For the last half hour, carefully remove the cheesecloth so the skin can brown nicely. Don't just pull it off, as that might tear the skin underneath (hence the importance of oiling the breast before applying the cloth).
You end up with a beautiful, Rockwell-type bird, with a moist juicy breast, and crispy skin. I've used this recipe over thirty times, and never had a problem. Happy Thanksgiving!
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I think turkeys generally aren't served with apples in their mouths, either, and they don't have delicious delicious short ribs.
Kenji, I seem to recall that the Turduckens you've made in the past had turkey breast that was quite moist, perhaps from all the fat oozing in from the duck.
Also, I'm such a sucker for stuffing rather than dressing. Can you roll some stuffing up in one of those rolls?
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@stratusgd
chefRObert is right - bacteria can be killed at much lower tmperatures. Pasteurization of milk takes place in temps as low as 145 degrees fahrenheit, and you can go even a couple of degree lower provided you give it enough time (30 minutes at 145 kills 99.999% of bacteria)
Also, the center of the turkey breast is not too much or a threat in terms of bacteria - it's the exterior that matters more, and that gets well above 145. Brining the turkey or salting it will also reduce bacteria count.
At the end of the day, if you want to be by the books and roast your turkey to 165, using this method of making it into an even shape will still give oyu better results that just roasting a turkey whole, so if you've been roasting whole turkeys to 165, give this a go, and you'll probably be happy with the results.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@Chefrobert: Good information about food safety. I think a lot people assume that bacteria needs to be incinerated at leather-making temperatures when a much more reasonable temperature will do.
Also, you're handle always makes me think of Robert Irvine from Dinner: Impossible.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
Once again, great article! I appreciate the step-by-step breakdown, and can't wait to convince my mom to STOP OVERCOOKING THE TURKEY!!
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
The Temperature Danger Zone for bacterial growth is 41-135 F. 135 F and above is fine. Good restaurants cook poultry to 140-145 F.
Potentially Hazardous Food:
-Moist Foods
-Neutral or Slightly Acidic pH (bacteria grows well between pH's of 4.6 - 7.5)
-Foods High in Protein (Fish, Eggs, Poultry, Melons, Dairy, etc)
FAT TOM: Food, Acidity, Temperature, Time, Oxygen, and Moisture
(The conditions needed by foodborne microorganisms to grow)
Populations at High Risk for Foodborne Illness:
-The Elderly, Pregnant Women, Infants & Children, Medicated or Chronically Ill
(Raw Ingredients/Foods that are not fully cooked, like oysters, raw meats and sushi are not safe for this population to consume)
It's not all about cooking temperature. Food can also become unsafe by purchasing from unsafe sources, using contaminated equipment, chemicals or physical objects added to food, holding or reheating it at improper temperatures, not cooling hot food quickly if eating leftovers later, leaving food in the temperature danger zone for 2 hours or more, poor personal hygiene, unsanitary surfaces, contaminated cloths/towels that transport microorganisms and not washing hands.
More often than not, foodborne illness is caused by these issues rather than improper internal cooking temperatures in protein. The truth is that most people tend to overcook meat.
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
This is not good. Nearly every turkey I've had in the past 10 years (unless I cooked it myself) is waaaaay too salty. This cannot make that trend better. I "brine" my turkey in the same thing I baste it in: a knarley mix of bacon grease (rubbed lovingly inside/outside/forced into every crevace) and orange juice. No extra salt added. Baste every 30 minutes or so while cooking. Turkey comes out juicy, the skin is crunchy and tangy and perfect (according to my friends who like the skin best - not me) and the stuffing even soaks up some of the flavor. And those of us who have not been inured to the excess salt of a junk food diet can eat it without soaking it in fresh water first. Of course, my vegan wife is not so thrilled, so I ask my friends to store up bacon fat for me - no bacon frying is one of the compromises (but not without benefit - she makes the best curries you could ask for).
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
I've brined and fried and the bird was great. Recently I've brined but added a little herb stock That is bay lea,f rosemary, basil, celery, onion and garlic simmered for 20 minutes then cooked and added to the brine along with half a cup of sugar. I brine over night in a big stock pot on the back porch when the nighttime temperature is in the high 30's or in a cooler if it is warmer (I replace some of the water with ice. It is melted but still cold by morning).
I cook the bird breast side down on a V rack with no stuffing (except an oinion and a celery stalk and maybe an apple) 450 degrees for 15 minutes and then down to 330 degrees. I use a convection oven . I turn the bird onto it's back (carefully) for the last 20 minutes to brown the breast skin.
The result is crispy skin all over, moist tender meat and because the exposed back cooks more quickly than the breast which is on the bottom, the white and dark meat are both cooked perfectly
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
You know, I have done the same as Mr Brown. However when I make my gravy I degrease some of the juice from the roasting pan and pour it into the "Dressing" Pan this gives me the flavor that I crave minus the fat. Try it you will like it!
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
I've never experienced a texture issue so radical as the one you describe - to have fresh turkey resemble "deli" turkey. The texture is plump and juicy and exactly like a regular turkey breast except the moisture is not cooked out of it. If you'd like to try brining, grab a supermarket chicken and have a go at it before the big day.
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
Does this type of brining technique give you texture like smoked turkey breast? Like the kind you get with prepackage/sliced turkey breast? There is something to be said about naturally moist Turkey...
Simply Cornbread
I think the maple syrup and walnuts will make this often dry bread into a delicious addition to Thanksgiving dinner. I'm going to give it a try!
Use for pork bones?
A nice bean soup is the natural thought for me, or a pot of black-eyed peas. Corn bread and collard greens optional. :)
Pumpkin pie Cheesecake
http://www.carouselcakes.com/#/product/28-Pumpkin_Cheese_Pie
This sounds very interesting
Use for pork bones?
roast the bones and make brown stock.
If you're a southern eater, you know that pork bones are essential for good greens.
If you're not a southern eater, you know that your dogs will love you if roast them and give them to chew on.
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
By cooking at 275-300, I mean cooking in a deep fryer with peanut oil.
The Food Lab: Turkey Brining Basics
@Jim O
I actually did one like that today. I did a full breast with skin on, brined for about 8 hours. I marinated it (injected) with a sweet and hot marinade (maple syrup, garlic, cayenne pepper and a few other things) then cooked it at 275-300 degrees (I find cooking hotter than that burns the skin, and I love the skin.) for about 5 mins per pound (also checked internal temp for 145 degrees). It was amazing.
Pumpkin pie Cheesecake
I made the King Arthur recipe mentioned above by MMinNYC, and it was excellent.
Pumpkin pie Cheesecake
Marcel Desaulniers has a recipe for a pumpkin chocolate cheesecake in his Death by Chocolate cookbook. It is rich and decadent. A showstopper every time I've made it. You can probably find the recipe somewhere online, but I highly recommend purchasing the book.
Use for pork bones?
I always use pork stock when I make tomato soup. Why? Because my mother always did.
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About stratusgd
Website: http://www.danielboyle.net
Location: Hamilton, NJ
About: A web designer who works in NYC.
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Kenji, chefRobert -
Thanks for the info - I don't have a meat grinder (yet), but at least this gives me a goal for the next time I do a turkey.