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From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@jwalz I would just like to claim my extra super bonus points for getting the Scott Pilgrim reference! So great.

This conversation has been really interesting to me as an environmentally-focused vegan, with a lot more support coming out from the veg side than I would have expected (though I love SE anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised)! And it's been pretty civil too, so, nice dialogue.

It's helpful for me, when someone asks me to explain where I'm coming from, to denounce PETA's methods and veg militarism right off the bat. Then defenses go down a bit on both sides.
Also, though I'm sure it's been mentioned, it's not that veg people necessarily dislike foods with animal products (thinking of the music-taste analogy someone brought up), but may choose not to eat them while still recognizing their tasty tastiness, if that helps anyone see another perspective.

From Serious Eats

The Next Food Network Star, Episode 8 Recap: Whoa, Transvestites On the Food Network

Oh, and also, when the term transvestite is used at all anymore, it almost primarily refers to gay men who cross-dress for the purpose of sexual fetishization. Thanks! =o)

From Serious Eats

The Next Food Network Star, Episode 8 Recap: Whoa, Transvestites On the Food Network

Thank you for the responses; sorry for leaving the thread for so long.

phlin: Acutally, most people aren't aware of the differences, especially people who aren't part of the queer community. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but rather just something to get educated about when called upon to deal with these issues. I wasn't trying to be condescending with the glossary suggestion-- it can be really helpful.

FastFoodCritic: You're right, S.E. writers can't know from watching a TV episode if it isn't explicitly mentioned. However, they can try to refrain from using a term that (most in the community agree) is sometimes offensive and definitely outdated across the board.

Erin Zimmer: Thanks for the attention, I'm sure people will appreciate it.

At the risk of making this a long comment, here are some guidelines. Keep in mind that different theorists have different definitions, but these are the most widely accepted:
Transgender-- a blanket term for anyone whose behavior or feelings transgress societal gender norms, regardless of sexual orientation (this is probably the safest bet for the people on the show, FastFoodCritic).
Transsexual-- a term under the transgender "umbrella" which refers to anyone who feels that they are a gender that is not their biological one (for example, a biological female who feels like a boy). Transsexual people can either act on this feeling with surgery or cross-dressing, or they may still live as their biological gender. This is also independent of sexual orientation.

From Serious Eats

The Next Food Network Star, Episode 8 Recap: Whoa, Transvestites On the Food Network

I didn't see the show, so I don't know what language was used by the people on-screen. However, just so you know (in terms of people who write for Serious Eats and want to be accurate and respectful), "transvestite" is an outdated and inaccurate term for people within a community who might identify as cross-dressers, transgender people, or transsexual people (to name a few possibilities), depending on their personal sexualities and genders align.
It would be worth doing a little research or having a glossary around the editing room, just to be accurate and help to keep from alienating your readers.

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From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@jwalz I would just like to claim my extra super bonus points for getting the Scott Pilgrim reference! So great.

This conversation has been really interesting to me as an environmentally-focused vegan, with a lot more support coming out from the veg side than I would have expected (though I love SE anyway, so I shouldn't be surprised)! And it's been pretty civil too, so, nice dialogue.

It's helpful for me, when someone asks me to explain where I'm coming from, to denounce PETA's methods and veg militarism right off the bat. Then defenses go down a bit on both sides.
Also, though I'm sure it's been mentioned, it's not that veg people necessarily dislike foods with animal products (thinking of the music-taste analogy someone brought up), but may choose not to eat them while still recognizing their tasty tastiness, if that helps anyone see another perspective.

From Serious Eats

The Next Food Network Star, Episode 8 Recap: Whoa, Transvestites On the Food Network

Oh, and also, when the term transvestite is used at all anymore, it almost primarily refers to gay men who cross-dress for the purpose of sexual fetishization. Thanks! =o)

From Serious Eats

The Next Food Network Star, Episode 8 Recap: Whoa, Transvestites On the Food Network

Thank you for the responses; sorry for leaving the thread for so long.

phlin: Acutally, most people aren't aware of the differences, especially people who aren't part of the queer community. It's nothing to be ashamed of, but rather just something to get educated about when called upon to deal with these issues. I wasn't trying to be condescending with the glossary suggestion-- it can be really helpful.

FastFoodCritic: You're right, S.E. writers can't know from watching a TV episode if it isn't explicitly mentioned. However, they can try to refrain from using a term that (most in the community agree) is sometimes offensive and definitely outdated across the board.

Erin Zimmer: Thanks for the attention, I'm sure people will appreciate it.

At the risk of making this a long comment, here are some guidelines. Keep in mind that different theorists have different definitions, but these are the most widely accepted:
Transgender-- a blanket term for anyone whose behavior or feelings transgress societal gender norms, regardless of sexual orientation (this is probably the safest bet for the people on the show, FastFoodCritic).
Transsexual-- a term under the transgender "umbrella" which refers to anyone who feels that they are a gender that is not their biological one (for example, a biological female who feels like a boy). Transsexual people can either act on this feeling with surgery or cross-dressing, or they may still live as their biological gender. This is also independent of sexual orientation.

From Serious Eats

The Next Food Network Star, Episode 8 Recap: Whoa, Transvestites On the Food Network

I didn't see the show, so I don't know what language was used by the people on-screen. However, just so you know (in terms of people who write for Serious Eats and want to be accurate and respectful), "transvestite" is an outdated and inaccurate term for people within a community who might identify as cross-dressers, transgender people, or transsexual people (to name a few possibilities), depending on their personal sexualities and genders align.
It would be worth doing a little research or having a glossary around the editing room, just to be accurate and help to keep from alienating your readers.

From Serious Eats

Cook the Book: Apple Pie

My mom's recipe (really from an old cookbook) is perfect, especially when she's the one making the crust. Mmm, flaky. One of the secrets is freshly-ground nutmeg, but really the best part is watching the juices bubble right after it's been taken out of the oven.
And then we eat it cold for breakfast the next day.

From Serious Eats

Weekend Book Giveaway: Service Included

"Can I have the eggplant Parmesan with eggplant instead of veal? I mean! Chicken? And the eggplant?"

It was actually pretty adorable, because it seemed the high-school-age couple was on a first date, and then even funnier was when the young man tried to order wine-- and not just any wine, but white Zin.

From Serious Eats

Cook the Book: 'Savory Bread From the Mediterranean'

Rosemary and sea salt foccaccia is so, so close to my favorite, but I have to go with naan. It's just so chewy and stretchy and wonderful.

From Serious Eats

Weekend Book Giveaway: 'The Amateur Gourmet'

I was trying to impress a new boyfriend at the time and tried to doctor a bottled marinara pasta sauce by whizzing it in the food processor with a block of tofu (vegan) (I somehow thought it would turn into ricotta) and thawed frozen spinach. In desperation I just kept adding salt and then some old wine my roommate had out-- essentially, it was inedible goo and I definitely learned my lesson.

From Serious Eats

Cook the Book: 'How to Pick a Peach'

Cooking: onions-- olive oil and onions start everything I make!
Raw: a beautiful, beautiful peach, or a bright orange baby globe tomato.

From Serious Eats

Weekend Madness: Win an Autographed Copy of 'United States of Arugula'

I had never had arugula, and especially never expected it on pizza, of all things, until I moved in with a new roommate in Berlin who put together the "typical" Berlin pizza of thin crust, tomato sauce, mozzerellla, parmesan flakes, and arugula added after baking. It was delicious, but hard to eat! It all came off the top with my first bite.

From Serious Eats

Cook the Book: 'Pure Dessert'

My favorıte dessert to make is Czech kolacy, which I still make with my mother every Christmas. We make the round ones with spoonfuls of filling in the center, and though poppy is the favorite of both of us (must be the Bohemian blood!), we also usually make cherry and apricot.

It's a cream cheese dough, so even though I don't eat them anymore (I'm vegan), I love helping put them together for our family celebration every year.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

You can certainly be a foodie and vegan. While we may have some dietary restrictions compared to the average eater, we are also much more aware of what we eat than the average eater. Being vegan makes you aware of and appreciate your food just that much more.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

I became a vegan at sixty-one (I'm 61 and 1/2) out of sheer curiosity and a desire to reduce my negative impact on Mother Earth. I wanted to know what my childrens' friends were experiencing, what was piquing the interest of some respected authors and artists, what the Skinny Bitches of the world knew that I didn't, and, most of all, how one could cook well on a vegan regime. I've been having a ball with it! There are some anxious moments in the kitchen, since almost every meal is a wild experiment. And, I'll admit, traveling can be a hungry experience. Nevertheless, I'm not interested in going back to my carnivorous ways.

It's interesting to encounter the assumptions my acquaintances make about veganism: they seem to assume that I've got a moral stake in it somewhere, that I've gone uber-Buddhist, that I feel superior. They have trouble understanding that I might simply be exercising an option. They say it is good for the functioning and longevity of our cognition to learn new things in our senior years; since I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, I wondered how I might turn that time into a real challenge. I think I've found a way I can feel good about.

I'm blogging about it with what passes for dry Southern wit and shots at seasoned wisdom at http://www.maturelandscaping.com. Am I the only senior nouveau vegan extant?

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

Eating no animal products is as silly as eating only animal products.

Religious reasons? Bullshit.
Moral reasons? Fuck you.
Health reasons? See Japan.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

I've been following Mark Bittman "vegan after dinnertime" idea for three months, now, and I've discovered a whole new world of possibilities. If anything, it has expanded rather than shrinked my cooking landscape. Having said that, I have found that vegetarian recipes in cookbooks or magazines, are, very often, based on cheese and eggs, which make them vegan unfriendly (as if editors thought all non meat eaters were created equal). While these I'm considering on going vegetarian, I certainly would miss the traditions (both family and cultural ones) that sorround the foods I've grown up to love.

Also, I can't avoid mentioning that I have several vegetarian friends and acquaintances. As for moral choices, I know a couple of them who have cheated on their respective partners, so I would say that eating or not eating meat definitely is not the only moral standard and should not be viewed as such.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@ankk1 As a Malaysian, I can tell you that Malaysian cuisine (from various ethnic groups in Msia) don't tend to be very vegan friendly.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@peekpoke - As far as the "sinners" thing goes, I sincerely doubt any of the vegans or vegetarians attracted to sites like SE go into hysterics at the sight of hamburger. I haven't yet been elected vegan spokesperson, but I can't say that I've ever been offended by talk of bacon (though the fad annoys me a bit, as does the cupcake fad, especially when we get into bacon cupcakes, but that's a different issue) or butter or cheddar or any of the things I don't eat. I also am fine when dining companions order cheeseburgers, or when my roommates fill the fridge with milk and meat. I am much more horrified when I see someone using pancake syrup instead of Grade B maple!

If I'm offended by anything, it's being called (by proxy) tasteless, a douche bag, an idiot or a hypocrite in threads where vegan food comes up.

I'm not asking that vegan food be celebrated to the detriment of nonvegan food (nonvegan food is quite tasty - I didn't stop eating cheese because I dislike it), simply that ALL delicious food deserves equal celebration, and that vegan recipes shouldn't immediately be dismissed as somehow lesser than any and all recipes containing meat, eggs or dairy.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@TimMoore are 75% of clothes created in sweatshops? That would require a sweatshop be defined as basically anything outside a western country.

Anyway, the "misogynistic or homophobic" line points out a clear difference between choices of taste versus morals. If 75% of all music is classified as "misogynistic or homophobic", would those who listen to that 75% be considered misogynistic or homophobic by those who abstain?

People who don't like cauliflower don't consider those who eat it "sinners", even the idea is silly.

Do vegans who chose to eat vegan as a moral choice consider non-vegans "sinners"? Based on the lines about being offended by the constant talk about bacon and meat, how could they not be?

Then how do you run a "foodie" site where 75% (or more) of your content actually "offends" some of your readers by being so gleefully celebrative? Do you tone down your glee in showing a whole pig being roasted, or a bloody rare burger?

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

Maybe a better analogy: can you call yourself a fashion lover if you refuse to buy clothes made in sweat shops?

That might be just as controversial a question, though.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@peekpoke fair point, but only proves that my analogy isn't better than any of the other ones

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@TimMoore: Would you claim that someone can declare themselves to be a music lover if they classify 75% of the worlds music as misogynistic or homophobic? Perhaps, but one with a narrow scope.

(keep in mind key ingredients like fish sauce and, dashi, and cooking styles like Chinese restaurant wok cooking where EVERYTHING touches meat products, or the scarcity of vegan desserts before you jump on my 75% number)

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

The music analogies are off-base. Veganism isn't a personal preference or arbitrary aversion. It's a decision based on an ethical judgement.

Would you claim that someone can't declare themselves to be a music lover if they choose to avoid buying or listening to music with misogynistic or homophobic lyrics?

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

As long as you pay the tab, I could care less what you order.
It's all money to me.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

To me, this seems pretty obvious: there are jerks on both sides, but on the whole, there's no reason to be confrontational about what you eat.

A little personal perspective: I'm the only vegetarian in my family, have been for 12 years now. My parents, initially wary of my choice, recently told me it completely opened up their horizons, food-wise -- they now eat quinoa, millet, all sorts of beans and greens on a daily basis, and even give me grief for not going organic often enough.

I'm the least picky eater in my group of friends (all meat-eaters). Basically, unless it was part of an animal, I'll eat it. Unlike most people, I love all fruits and veggies, even the most obscure. Meanwhile, my non-veg BF only eats about a dozen variations on pizza, potatoes, chicken, and burgers, and it takes major effort to get him to branch out.

So please, enough with the "finicky vegetarian/vegan" stereotypes.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@BBQdude - I don't know, vegan food is very diverse and really the only thing hard to replicate is straight up meat. If you want a steak on a plate then vegetarianism can't really replicate that. Although I have made some seitan ribs that were pretty good and I used in a sandwich. I never ate much egg or cooked with much egg but really the only thing I can think of that can't be replicated (or is difficult to do so) is meringue which is something I never liked anyway.

There was also an interesting blog not too long ago that recreated Anthony Bourdain recipes but with all vegan ingredients. The people that did the recipes were quite creative, much more than myself. I don't know much about food science but in order to replicate textures, tastes, etc, it does take quite a bit of knowledge and I salute those that do it.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@dbcurrie--it was a rhetorical question, flipping it around. Besides which, health issues or food preparation jobs have no bearing on this debate.

p.s. I'm a unicorn!

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

sailordave,

I think your analogy is close, but not quite right. I think being a vegetarian foodie is like being a music lover who doesn't like stringed instruments. Any of 'em. Being a foodie vegan is like being a music lover, but not liking stringed instruments, wind instruments, brass instruments or percussion. I guess a cappella music is nice... but it's hard to understand a music lover who dismisses all those other wonderful sounds.

5 days a week we eat a basically vegetarian diet. But there's simply no way I could give up the magical food-binding, sauce-emulsifying power of the egg. To those of us who will eat basically anything, veganism can seem a little empty. And extremely hard to understand.

But good luck to you vegan foodies! I may not understand you, but I wish you all well!

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

Foodie = someone who loves food. Food = something you eat. Pretty broad. I think you are a foodie if you are passionate about food. Personally, I eat everything. My diet is 90% plant based, thanks to my CSA. All of my veg and meats are organic and sustainablly raised. That's my beef with beef, I care about how the food got to my table. If it was mass produced damaging the envoirnment, the people harvesting it, the animals, the communities, I don't want to have anything to do with it. Unfortunately, that means eating less meat for me. If I want meat I have to make a 90 minute (round trip) drive to Whole Foods. That dosen't happen very often! But if I'm out with friends I would rather enjoy them and the enviornment than stand out and make the situation uncomfortable. It's only 1 meal, I feel good about my food choices so 1 meal isn't going to make me lose any sleep.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@lyricanji, there's no set-in-stone definition of foodie. If someone ate nothing but rocks and vitamin pills, they could call themselves a foodie if they wanted to.

And seriously, if someone ate only animal products, chances are they'd end up with health issues that would make the foodie definition the least of their worries.

What about someone who has gluten intolerance and doesn't eat wheat, but works at a bakery and makes and sells beautiful breads and cakes? Is that person not a baker?

Some people call themselves foodies because they eat at restaurants and enjoy the food. Some people call themselves foodies because they cook wonderful things. Some people lack the means to eat out or to cook fantastic things, but they consider themselves foodies because they read food magazines and study ethnic cuisines.

And some people eat and cook and read and enjoy, but hate the foodie label. What difference does it make what other people eat or how they label themselves?

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

Can someone be considered a foodie who would never, never, never eat any kind of vegetation for any reason? If it didn't walk, swim, or slither it's never going to cross their lips?

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

@misha! I have been reading down this very long thread and was thinking about Christina Pierillo. My daughter took a cooking class with her and bought her cookbooks home with her when she moved back home. I was skeptical when she started preparing her microbiotic dishes. I am a confirmed meat eater (and food snob) and I LOVED the dishes that my daughter cranked out. When she gets those cookbooks out I know that I am going to love it. I'm an easy 'crossover' eater.

Now on my soapbox- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - stepping down.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

Since I sometimes think of food/cooking as either my sport or my art, the music analogy works. But even someone who is a great fan of many types of music and can appreciate the artistry in the things they don't personally like will have limits to what they listen to at home. I doubt you're going to find many people with an equal love for rock, country, rap, chanting monks, sousa marches, classical, tribal drumming, jazz, religious, techno, disco, and every other style. When they get home and put their feet up, there are going to be things that they choose not to listen to. There are probably some things that they absolutely hate listening to. Some people are going to have wider interests than others, but you are going to find few (if any) people who enjoy every style of music on the planet.

People who love paintings and drawings and sculptures will not like every style enough to want them all in their homes. You can see the effort that goes into a pointillism painting, yet still not want to buy one and hang it in your living room.

If someone comes to my home and doesn't like the musical selections that are playing during dinner, that's fine. I can turn it off or change to something we mutually agree on. But there's no sense in arguing about what is better, or us trying to convince each other to embrace each other's favorite music.

I'm sure there are vegetarians who look at a meat-based meal and say, "that looks good, but I don't want to eat it." Or "that's a pretty presentation, but not for me." Or they can appreciate the skill in preparing the food, but they have no interest in tasting it. Big deal. I can admire your fluffy coconut cake, but it's not passing my lips. Ever.

And for meat eaters to insist that vegans are missing out, keep in mind that the traditional western diet includes a very small subset of the animal kingdom. There are meat eaters in other cultures who would think you are missing out because you don't eat the same meats they do. I regularly eat beef, pork, lamb, chicken, turkey and most (but not all) seafood. So that's 3 mammals, two birds, and some underwater life out of everything possible. That's not much at all. I've probably missed a few things, but those wouldn't be on the list of regular foods, like bison and duck.

I know some meat eaters who won't touch any sort of seafood, so a vegetarian is cutting out five things that are on my regular menu. It doesn't seem like a lot.

I love food, I love to cook, but there are plenty of animals that I don't want to eat. I'm not interested in dog, snake, insects, cats, rodents, worms, or a variety of animal parts that some cultures like. I've tried a few meats that I wouldn't choose to eat again. I am a meat eater, but I eat a much wider variety of plant-based foods than animals. And some days, the whole menu is meatless. Big deal. It's a my choice. If someone else chooses differently, it doesn't affect me any more than their choice of music or artwork.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

My music analogy was supposed to be funny and only somewhat appropriate, but i'm glad it has got a few people thinking.

I'm cool with vegetarians and vegans, many of my friends follow those diets. I myself was vegetarian for awhile. I don't want to knock anyone on what they choose to eat (well, scratch that, i can rail all day against corporate fast food and all that but let's save that for later.) My point however is this: while I agree that you could cook for several lifetimes and create mind-blowing food without ever touching an animal product, I only have one lifetime to play out and when it comes to food, my expanding knowledge of cooking and developing a palate? I WANT IT ALL. If you don't want it all for whatever reason, it's all good, but I do. I'm just sayin'.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

As a fish & fowl eater, I'd like to recommend going to www.christinacooks.com for some fabulous vegan recipes! So long as you aren't allergic to the ingredients, everyone can enjoy!

Also, no one ever has any right to tell another person what they should or shouldn't eat. EVER!! We are each allowed our own choices for our own reasons.

From Serious Eats

Foodie vs. (Vegan) Foodie: Let's Stop Dropping Anvils Already

I love food. I love eating. I look cooking. I'm vegetarian. No one can tell me that I don't love those things.

+2 for @dbcurrie's "I fail to see why people get so upset about what other people choose to eat or not eat. Big deal. Eat what you want, let me eat what I want, and leave it at that."

@KarynMC, nice piece. Good to see everyone thinking so hard on a Friday.

From Serious Eats

The Next Food Network Star, Episode 8 Recap: Whoa, Transvestites On the Food Network

@philoserine -- We apologize for offending you or any other reader. We will definitely keep the nuances of the term in mind when referring to other gender-ambiguous chefs or food personalities.

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