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Jamon Iberico is 27 times better than prosciutto ;)

Diet is a majorly contributing factor to the flavor. The chef who oohed and aahed over the jamon and then was less than impressed at the pork chops his farmer dropped off, may have been thinking the US pig ate a lifetime of Liberty corn, the gentically modified, high-starch, low protein food-like product that most American farmers grow for high-fructose corn syrup, ethanol and livestock feed. We are what we eat, I have heard, so we are what our pigs and cattles and chickens eat, too. And for me, these animal products have become far less appealing since I learned about the foods thay are fed.

Will the price come down? Yes, a little bit, when the supply chains are increased. But I wouldn't expect the price to fall by more than 20% (of current dollars) over the next three years. Jamon is very expensive in Spain and there are very few (maybe only one or two) USDA-certified slaughterhouses in Spain.

I have 2 words for this....Burger Burger!......Its a little take-out place downtown with some limited seating but its worth the trip.. Just try it and you'll know what I'm talking about.

I went to 5 Guys Burgers in Midtown on Thursday for lunch. I found it to be better than the Burger Joint 2 blocks away. The burgers (two patties) was moist and delicious, the fries were awesome, and the counter people were very friendly.

As luck would have it, the Treat Truck was nearby and I got the Caramel Creme cookies, which were amazing.

First of all I understand and appreciate the economic realities of bars and restaurants. Some burger-centric bars, like the Corner Bistro, manage to make lunch work. To me a burger is a quintessential lunchtime repast, so I just think if you're a bar owner with a heralded burger you could make lunch work someway, somehow.

send Fred to Flushing....

Ed, in your post you mention that Chinese food is like pizza in the sense that it morphed into something else when it crossed the ocean and has taken on its own American identity completely separate from its "authentic" roots. I smell another book! We need a "Pizza: A slice of heaven" for Chinese food. I would love to read a thoroughly researched book explaining how Chinese-American and Chinese-Canadian food came to be and discussing the regional differences in what we call "Chinese food" within the US itself.

This discussion has covered a lot of ground: it began with an article lamenting the lack of authentic Chinese food in the US: this was rebutted, and the question of authenticity raised. When we get right down to it though, the two fundamental issues remain unresolved:
What is 'authentic' Chinese food?; is it really so scarce in the US?

I freely admit that I don't know, since I've only been up and down the east coast, mostly in urban centres (although I first tried Chinese food in rural western NY), and I'm not familiar enough with Chinese food to be able to vouch for its authenticity, only whether or not it has been carefully prepared.

I would also add that, although being able to find whatever has been identified as 'authentic Chinese food' in only a few urban centres might seem to support the original argument, this is equally true for a good many other cuisines, so perhaps the focus on urban centres is not misplaced at all.

I appreciate authenticity, but it is an elusive quality, because it covers so many different aspects. The argument in favour of DOC and similar appellations is valid, but food is more than a collection of ingredients. One's senses are imprinted with definite sense of what is 'correct' in food, and this shows up not only in the ingredients, but the proportions used, the cooking methods selected, and which criteria are used when substitutions need to be made. Turn an Italian, a Chinese, and a North African loose in identically stocked kitchens with instructions to produce 'a rice dish', and this is easy to see.

It just seems that the focus is being misplaced; authentic ingredients are wonderful things, but when this becomes THE central focus, its easy to lose track of what makes food deeply enjoyable, and it instead becomes a museum piece. And I'm not speaking only abstractly, I'm speaking from the standpoint of someone who grew up with specific and clearly defined cuisine that rests heavily on very characteristic ingredients, and who misses it badly.

Finally, I would really like to hear authenticity in Chinese food defined and debated by the Chinese and Chinese-Americans themselves, in addition to everyone else's certainty of what this 'must' be; I have a feeling there would be some surprises :D

It is now clear to me that you have no point. In real terms, you have said absolutely nothing.

Again Karen, you are conflating two different things. Kosher and Halal have nothing to do with the issue being discussed here. Kosher or Halal are authentic only in their Kosher or Halal-ness. They have nothing to do with regional or cultural authenticity. There are myriad Kosher lunch places in midtown, staffed by Hasidic Jews, that serve everything from crepes to pizza to chinese food. None of this food is authentically anything, but it is all Kosher.

Yes, authenticity is something that is normalized by conventions of humans, often government appointed. As far as I know, god has never parted the clouds to tell us unequivocally what makes an authentic buffalo mozzarella.

Designations of authenticity come from both experts in the field, associations of businesses that market a product, and government regulators who seek to protect them. For example, if you drink wine you will notice the AOC label on French wines. It means Appellation d'Origine Contrôlée. It literally means, a sanctioned name of origin. This is a government sanctioned designation to ensure that the Cote du Rhone you are drinking is actually from that region, and not from somewhere else.

This designation matters to me the consumer, and to the producers of wine from that region, neither of us wanting unfair competition from someone else claiming to be from there, but who isnt. Wines are specific to a region. The earth, water and climate impart their qualities to the wine. Even within one small region, quality of the soil and orientation of the field towards the sun can vary enormously, sometimes even from one side of the road going through it to the other. That's why within the Burgundy region alone, for example, you have at least a dozen different appellations (Gevrey-Chambertin, Vosne-Romanée, Nuits-Saint-Georges, Pommard, Meursault, Cote-d'Or, Cote-Rotie, etc etc etc) all within a region barely 100 miles long and 20 miles wide. Yet each one is vastly different from the other. Hence the need for designations.

Italians do it too, theirs is called DOC: Denominazione di origine controllata. So does anyone who produces something of value. You might want to read this article, about how Italian olive oil packers were shipping in oils, often not even from olives, from other countries sometimes as far flung as Afghanistan, then repackaging them and selling them to unsuspecting consumers, often at a great markup, as pure, extra virgin first cold pressed Italian olive oil. Certification of authenticity is actually something that is very important, and your cynical undertones belie an attitude of one who doesnt really care. Are you really a Serious Eater?

As for the "slightly authentic and a little bit delicious", I still don't see what you're getting at. It is what it is. I feel genuinely sorry for people who only have that quality of food at their disposal. That doesnt change the quality of that food within the ontological scale I defined. So again, what is your point?

seyo, you're on a roll. :)

The way that halal and kosher have a relation to authenticity is not in the reality of what they are but that halal or kosher have a certification process with human beings in charge of it and (as someone suggested in an earlier post, which was what that part of my post responded to) "authentic" could also have a certification process with human beings in charge of it.

It is the focus on the process of certification (of authenticity)(or of halal or kosher) that my post spoke to.

It's the "who says so" that is under debate in my mind - I've simply sidetracked the delicious question for Ed summed that up quite well to start with and I could add no more but perhaps a "wooo-oooo! good writing!" and
that had already been said before by the others preceding me.

The "Who Says So" and the "Why They Say So" always lead to the most fascinating stories, at least to my mind.

I didnt forget "slightly authentic and a little bit delicious." That falls right into the spectrum, above. And that's the whole point. "Authentic" and "delicious" are separate criteria that both vary independently. "Slightly authentic and a little bit delicious" is a waste of time, money and calories. It hits no high marks in either criteria. Again, I would go for option A every time. So long as I agreed with and trusted the definition of what was "authentic" and "delicious."

If Ed Levine tells me he thinks it's delicious, then I trust that. If Fred Feretti says it's authentic, I trust that too. Ideally, option A would be the place where Ed thinks the food is delicious and Fred can vouch for it's authenticity. I will concede that deliciousness is more important than authenticity, so if you had to compromise, authenticity would be less important. But I don't believe in compromise. Eat the best of whatever there is to be eaten.

As for halal and kosher, they are about dogmatic hygiene rules, that are largely irrelevant today, to those who are no shackled by dogmatic beliefs of course. For example, eating shellfish and pork a couple thousand years ago was a risky proposition, hence the rules forbidding them. Today, pork and shellfish are good eats. You could use halal or kosher chicken, beef and lamb and make halal or kosher dishes unrecognizable, silly, and perhaps even disgusting, to someone from say, Pakistan, or someone in Williamsburg.

Halal, and kosher don't speak to authenticity of cultural, regional, and/or historic styles of preparation, nor do they speak to deliciousness. They are only about what is allowed and what isn't. Gefilte fish made with yellowtail and served with a yuzu and miso kewpie mayonnaise would not be considered authentic or traditional, even though they would be kosher, and yet would be much much more delicious than the gefilte fish my grandma is used to. To me. Maybe not to my grandmother. Because, guess what? You think authenticity is relative? Well, so is deliciousness.

Halal and kosher have nothing to do with aesthetics. They have to do with rules designed for people who crave to be ruled. And the rules change with the whims of those who hold power. Often regardless of tradition, or authenticity.

Oh, and to Barry, post #1, please take no offense at this, but I found your comment to very depressing. I think you damn well should serve your family the food you eat and consider delicious. I am willing to bet that there are plenty of things you can find in Taiwanese cuisine that would knock their socks off. They are dieing to learn, even if they dont know it. Are you kidding? What an honor that would be! And a great new way to connect with them. Who knows, maybe they'll lose taste for the sweet corn starchy oily Chinese buffet garbage. You have an opportunity here to make their lives better.