Serious Eats - seriouseats.com

I am not a vegan, but I feel this post set the tone for the comments that follow, that is that the debate is a silly one.

In defense of my friends that are vegan I did a little poking around. Here's the thing. Anytime profit and animals become intertwined there will be exploitation. Whether or not you extend your sympathies to animals of the insect variety is up to your conscience, but the bees are in fact exploited. Their honey is stolen, and they are fed sugar in replacement of it - which isn't as nutritious as honey. Beekeepers are not just taking the "extra." Queens are killed off prematurely - just like baby cows are killed to make veal as a natural component of milk production. Bees likely lose their lives every time honey is harvested.

A good bottom line idea in all of this debate is this: when profit and animals become intertwined, there is exploitation.

I read this website. It was the first one that popped up on google, but there is likely better out there.

http://www.vegetus.org/honey/honey.htm

I recommend the stealing honey paragraph. It gets to the heart of the the exploitation or not exploitation debate. A vegan eating honey is also consuming bone char processed can sugar - which is not open up for debate as being vegan or not vegan.

Novel ideas when they are first presented may often be depicted as silly or something to make fun of. When you are able to listen to someone's idea - different from yours - with respect and preserving dignity, great things may happen.

http://www.austin360.com/food_drink/content/food_drink/stories/2008/05/0521discovery.html

Follow the link to read about a charter school in Austin that has rewritten an entire curriculum around gardening and eating local.

Ethiopia: complex, completely delicioius food with high emphasis on the social

Korea: not nearly as popular as other Asian cuisines, but it - like Ethiopia - is really unique and complex, there's nothing like it

New Orleans: popular but with good reason, it has it's own cultural and geographical significance

green eggs and ham

hard boiled eggs

@bingsy - the point madball made is still valid. Vegans are hypocrites - unless they're personally growing and harvesting every vegetable, how can they claim that their diet doesn't cause any suffering? These idiotic vegan zealots are whiny crybabies with no sense of perspective who feel like pushing their guilt trip about being at the top of the food chain on us.

@bingsy - Thanks for this point. Respecting the beliefs of others - however foreign - when it comes to food is something that we all need to work on.

@madball911 - Your "fossil fuels" non-point is a lot like when my dad used to jokingly say "but what about all the innocent vegetables that died to make your salad??" - that is, mocking and not valid. Fossils aren't exploited, since they've been dead for millions of years. There is no industry that produces animals and processes them so that their fossils will become fuel.

If you shared the same beliefs as people who become vegans do, their choice not to use animal products wouldn't sound "extreme." I almost never go out to eat, and it seems "extreme" to me that many of my friends spend $30-$50 a day eating every meal at a restaurant. But to them, my practice of spending the time to make all my food seems "extreme." Neither of us is right or wrong - we just have difference practices and beliefs about our diets.

Dumb article. I'm trying to determine if its tone was cheeky.

Like Jacqueline I tend to avoid salad because I don't want to seem like what one of "those" women, but in general I eat lighter in the summer so occasionally I'll order one with that disclaimer. There's a line between looking like you're high maintenance and looking like you could take him in an eating competition (though some guys like that).

Places like Korean grill houses where you cook your own food makes for a good ice breaker.* I think that sushi is a good ice breaker as well. I find it somewhat amusing to eat clumsily. If it happens, it happens. It's real. No one wants to make a mess of themselves, but clutzy can be cute.

*My fingers automatically started to finish "ice" with "cream" there. Must be the season.

I don't see anything wrong with Sushi, that is probably the perfect size thing to eat on a first date. I totally try to avoid salad because I am a tall and slim drink of water, so I never want the guy to think I am "watching my weight."
I've been a vegan for awhile because I was testing how it would enhance my triathlon performance, but when that guy orders a steak or a burger I am salivating over it and I know Vegans hate me!
I definitely avoid coffee because that is the worst breath.

Had my first date with my (now) wife at the Corner Bistro. She dug in to the burger with gusto. Points for that.

We later went back and saw a woman on an obvious first date eating her burger with a knife and fork. My wife asked what would have happened if she'd eaten it like that. I told her flat out there wouldn't have been a second date.