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Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
Where does this dressing = casserole, stuffing = inside the bird definition come from? Is there some kind of book I need to read? Did I miss that issue of Food Terminology News?
Comment of the Day: Stuffing vs. Dressing
The Oxford English Dictionary supports the idea of stuffing as a subcategory of dressing. I was as intrigued (or maybe annoyed) as you were with the dead-set conviction of some of the authors here that stuffing was within a bird and dressing without, so I did some research. Looking at 19th century cookbooks I found a lot more ambiguity in the terms. I wrote a post about what I found on my blog (it's pretty long, which is why I'm doing this shameless self-promotion instead of just pasting in the results): http://marthaandtom.com/2009/11/stuffing-or-dressing/.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I was committed to doing the whole Norman Rockwell thing this year but after reading your article I'm convinced once again to break the turkey down. Having the carcass for stock is just too perfect.
My solution in the past to the turkey leg/thigh problem was to confit them while roasting the breast (I'm thinking turkey rillettes). I don't have a grinder for making the forcemeat; would it be possible to do with a food processor?
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Recent Comments | Response to Comments
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
@Erin Zimmer: I completely agree; call it what you want (and I think this is historically supported). But I don't understand where people got the idea that dressing was one thing and stuffing was a different, distinct thing. Does anybody know?
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
Where does this dressing = casserole, stuffing = inside the bird definition come from? Is there some kind of book I need to read? Did I miss that issue of Food Terminology News?
Comment of the Day: Stuffing vs. Dressing
The Oxford English Dictionary supports the idea of stuffing as a subcategory of dressing. I was as intrigued (or maybe annoyed) as you were with the dead-set conviction of some of the authors here that stuffing was within a bird and dressing without, so I did some research. Looking at 19th century cookbooks I found a lot more ambiguity in the terms. I wrote a post about what I found on my blog (it's pretty long, which is why I'm doing this shameless self-promotion instead of just pasting in the results): http://marthaandtom.com/2009/11/stuffing-or-dressing/.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I was committed to doing the whole Norman Rockwell thing this year but after reading your article I'm convinced once again to break the turkey down. Having the carcass for stock is just too perfect.
My solution in the past to the turkey leg/thigh problem was to confit them while roasting the breast (I'm thinking turkey rillettes). I don't have a grinder for making the forcemeat; would it be possible to do with a food processor?
The Food Lab: Perfect Boiled Eggs
I am really impressed that you conducted all these trials in your apartment kitchen. It's one thing to do this kind of thorough experimentation at Cook's Illustrated where I imagine there are plenty of hungry bellies willing to make sure failed trials don't go to waste, but to do this on your own requires either a limitless love for eggs or a steadfast commitment to sacrificing in the name of science. Did you get sick of egg salad and deviled eggs?
Wow. London Secret Restaurant Doing 9/11 Menu
I don't really want to get into the tackiness or non-tackiness of the theme but that is a really terrible, boring-sounding menu.
Serious Green: Freeze It Now, Eat It Later
I love the first picture of the inside of a freezer. Does anybody's freezer look that good? If so, come fix mine!
Do You Have a Favorite Cheapish Olive Oil?
Trader Joe's regular olive oil is pretty flavorful, even in situations where you would normally use extra virgin olive oil.
Seriously Asian: The Passing Through Technique
What do you mean by "their flavors can be sealed in"? How does frying accomplish this?
Do You Eat or Email First?
I am eating my breakfast while reading this.
'The Most Revolting Dish Ever Devised'? Or Have You Seen Worse?
Oh, how I love Elizabeth David
Threadless T-Shirt Giveaway: Baron VonFunburger's Haunted Castle Cavalcade
Grilled Stuft Burrito from Taco Bell. I'm not proud.
Dinner Tonight: Ful Medames (Egyptian-Style Breakfast Beans)
When I had this in Egypt, all of the additions to the beans was on the side, so that each diner could customize their breakfast to their preferences. That was my favorite part; deciding how much of each thing to put in and modifying my mixture as I went.
Michael Ruhlman's New Book: 'Ratio'
60% for bread dough seems a little low. I usually shoot for closer to 70, but then I like a big, open crumb.
In Videos: 'Pure and Simple,' a Day in the Life of Una Pizza Napoletana
That makes me want to make some pizza. Best of luck to Anthony.
Is Artisanal, Handmade Food Always Better?
I still doubt Smucker's and Oscar Meyer have much to offer; bland isn't much better than offensive. The huge disparities in the quality of artisanal food just makes eating it that much more interesting!
Is The Food Revolution Upon Us?
While I think it's great that this particular fad has reached the White House I still think the "food revolution" has major strides to make in terms of accessibility; advocates for farmers markets and fresh food largely seem to come from a particular class. I agree with Pollan in that for the change in eating habits to be more than a fleeting trend there needs to be a lot more grassroots legwork done.
The Future of Food, According to 'Mother Jones'
I'd like to think 'delicious' alone would be enough to sell people on local food but given what most people eat now it looks like the key to mass adoption of local or organic food is going to be price. And for the time being that looks like it will require a look at subsidies, both who we should give them to and who we should take them from.
The Supposed Top 10 Worst Fast Food Campaigns of All Time
Yeah that campaign was brilliant. I never went to Quiznos before seeing it and, like misha, if there's one thing I think of whenever I see a Quiznos it's "pepper bar".
Store-Bought Chicken Stocks, Reviewed: Which Are the Best?
Regarding Bittman's stock tasting of vegetable tea: did you salt the stock before you tasted it? Most of my stocks are pretty bland until they get seasoned, but that's only once they've arrived in their final destination.
All About the Inauguration Luncheon
The first ingredient in the dish called "Winter Vegetables" is asparagus. Is asparagus a winter vegetable now?
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
I must agree with her about the fried onions on top of green beans. Never understood that! I wouldn't think it would be appetizing. You can tell that recipe is definitely old-school because I've never seen anyone do that since the 80's!
Vegetables are best when done simply. A little salt and pepper, some garlic and butter is really all you need!
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
I love Elise's blog! It's cool that she's featured here.
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
Simply recipes is my favorite food blog. I've had more consistent success with Elise's recipes than with those from any other blog -- and I read a LOT of them!
The green bean casserole will be on my Thanksgiving table. It's not my favorite, but a few family members really enjoy it. It only appears once a year.
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
Ditto x 10. Elise and her family are fabulous. I used two recipes of hers for Thanksgiving last year - green beans with pancetta and shallots, and cranberry sauce - and will use them again this year. I've also made over a dozen other recipes from her site. She is the BEST!!
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
That looks really yummy. I hope I can find the energy to try it. I actually own a meat grinder already.
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
Simply Recipes has been my favorite food blog for years.
Elise's recipes are not complicated, and they always have great end results.
Stacey Snacks
Ditto
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
Simply Recipes has been my favorite food blog for years.
Elise's recipes are not complicated, and they always have great end results.
Stacey Snacks
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
When you aren't actually stuffing the bird with the bread mixture, it somehow seems wrong to imply that you are. So when it's cooked outside the bird, it's dressing. So I believe, anyway. And apparently it's dancing with death to cook it within the bird anymore (although my mother always made too much, and after stuffing the bird with stuffing before cooking it and the bird together, she put the remaining mixture into a pan and baked it separately as dressing).
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
@Tombolo: Dressing schmessing. We're with Elise on this one. It's a free country! You should be able to call it stuffing no matter how it's cooked!
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
i love elise and simply recipes - that green bean recipe looks fantastic!
Thanksgiving Talk: Elise Bauer of Simply Recipes
Elise, you are totally awesome. I don't readily give that compliment to anyone I've never met, but you are a clear exception. Your recipes and photography rock. Several of my new keepers are from your blog and your parents kitchen. Please don't ever go away. I look for your posts daily.
Have a great holiday.
Mark
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@mellycooks
No need - just make the sausage mixture using only the thighs, and keep the drumsticks on the side separate to roast. The recipe makes more than enough sausage, so if you leave the drumsticks out, you'll still have neough to stuff the breasts with, and have roasted drumsticks for your dad.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
Kenji, great writing and meticulous organization. Thanks for figuring this stuff out. And, love that photo of the half-tied ballotine. Reminded me of Gourmet (sob).
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I think I'm going to go for this, but there's one problem. I have to have drumsticks for my dad. So I'm thinking I'll get a couple of turkey legs to cook along side the bird. Any tips on working out the timing? Maybe start the legs a little ahead of the stuffed breasts?
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I don't understand - why would anyone prefer a turkey over a suckling pig?
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@Aya
You're right - there was one year when the turducken was moist, but that took a heck of a lot of work to get it that way.
Short version:
The problem: chicken is inside duck is inside turkey. Chicken needs to cook to 145, duck is better at 125, turkey needs to be 145.
Solution:
1. Bone out chicken, stuff, wrap in cheesecloth, poach until 145.
2. Bone out duck. Stuff with cooked chicken. Wrap in cheesecloth, poach until 125.
3. bone out turkey, stuff with duck stuffed with chicken, sew up, roast in low oven until 145. Remove from oven and rest
4. Roast in hot oven until brown and crisp.
5. Carve and serve.
See? Pain in the butt.
@KevinB
The problem with the stuffing is that even if you precook it, juices from the turkey drip into it while the turkey is roasting, so you still need to get it to come up to at least 145 before you can pull the turkey out, which means taking the turkey a little higher.
Of course, as always, if you've been doing something for years and are happy with the results, then that's all that matters! It's a heck of a lot easier than all this rigmarole I put my bird through anyway...
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I never have to go to these lengths, and I still end up with moist white meat, fully cooked dark meat, and an honest-to-God stuffing. Two simple steps:
I make a stuffing out of pork sausage, celery, apples, bread, and spices. My simple solution to bacteria? Cook the sausage before you mix it in the stuffing. Problem solved - the stuffing still sucks up lots of flavour from the bird (and my recipe makes a ton, so we end up with dressing as well, which is still good, but definitely tastes different) but it's fully cooked.
Second step: soak a triple (at least) layer of cheesecloth in oil, oil the breast, and then place the cheesecloth over the breast. After the first 45 minutes of cooking, baste every 20-30 minutes, paying particular attention to the breast. This means basting about 6-8 times, depending, for 2-3 minutes a time - 12 to 24 minutes total, which is a lot less than the time needed to dismember or debone the bird in the methods above. For the last half hour, carefully remove the cheesecloth so the skin can brown nicely. Don't just pull it off, as that might tear the skin underneath (hence the importance of oiling the breast before applying the cloth).
You end up with a beautiful, Rockwell-type bird, with a moist juicy breast, and crispy skin. I've used this recipe over thirty times, and never had a problem. Happy Thanksgiving!
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
I think turkeys generally aren't served with apples in their mouths, either, and they don't have delicious delicious short ribs.
Kenji, I seem to recall that the Turduckens you've made in the past had turkey breast that was quite moist, perhaps from all the fat oozing in from the duck.
Also, I'm such a sucker for stuffing rather than dressing. Can you roll some stuffing up in one of those rolls?
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
Kenji, chefRobert -
Thanks for the info - I don't have a meat grinder (yet), but at least this gives me a goal for the next time I do a turkey.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@stratusgd
chefRObert is right - bacteria can be killed at much lower tmperatures. Pasteurization of milk takes place in temps as low as 145 degrees fahrenheit, and you can go even a couple of degree lower provided you give it enough time (30 minutes at 145 kills 99.999% of bacteria)
Also, the center of the turkey breast is not too much or a threat in terms of bacteria - it's the exterior that matters more, and that gets well above 145. Brining the turkey or salting it will also reduce bacteria count.
At the end of the day, if you want to be by the books and roast your turkey to 165, using this method of making it into an even shape will still give oyu better results that just roasting a turkey whole, so if you've been roasting whole turkeys to 165, give this a go, and you'll probably be happy with the results.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@Chefrobert: Good information about food safety. I think a lot people assume that bacteria needs to be incinerated at leather-making temperatures when a much more reasonable temperature will do.
Also, you're handle always makes me think of Robert Irvine from Dinner: Impossible.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
Once again, great article! I appreciate the step-by-step breakdown, and can't wait to convince my mom to STOP OVERCOOKING THE TURKEY!!
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
The Temperature Danger Zone for bacterial growth is 41-135 F. 135 F and above is fine. Good restaurants cook poultry to 140-145 F.
Potentially Hazardous Food:
-Moist Foods
-Neutral or Slightly Acidic pH (bacteria grows well between pH's of 4.6 - 7.5)
-Foods High in Protein (Fish, Eggs, Poultry, Melons, Dairy, etc)
FAT TOM: Food, Acidity, Temperature, Time, Oxygen, and Moisture
(The conditions needed by foodborne microorganisms to grow)
Populations at High Risk for Foodborne Illness:
-The Elderly, Pregnant Women, Infants & Children, Medicated or Chronically Ill
(Raw Ingredients/Foods that are not fully cooked, like oysters, raw meats and sushi are not safe for this population to consume)
It's not all about cooking temperature. Food can also become unsafe by purchasing from unsafe sources, using contaminated equipment, chemicals or physical objects added to food, holding or reheating it at improper temperatures, not cooling hot food quickly if eating leftovers later, leaving food in the temperature danger zone for 2 hours or more, poor personal hygiene, unsanitary surfaces, contaminated cloths/towels that transport microorganisms and not washing hands.
More often than not, foodborne illness is caused by these issues rather than improper internal cooking temperatures in protein. The truth is that most people tend to overcook meat.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
A question about the temperatures: I always assumed (and have read) that the 165° mark is about food safety, i.e. killing bacteria. While the turkey breast may appear 'done' at 145°, that's still a 20° margin.
Having had a bout of food poisoning (not from anything home-made, fortunately) that resulted in losing 10 lbs over Christmas one year and fever-induced hallucinations, you'll forgive me for be cautious about undercooked food.
My own preference is to either break up the turkey, or to flip it. I've never made a bird heaver than 15 lbs - and that's easy enough to flip.
The Food Lab: Turkey Stuffed Turkey
@Tombolo - you could also just go with the second approach, making the breast "log," and serving turkey rilletes or crisp turkey confit on the side.
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About Tombolo
Website: http://www.marthaandtom.com/
Location: Minneapolis
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@Erin Zimmer: I completely agree; call it what you want (and I think this is historically supported). But I don't understand where people got the idea that dressing was one thing and stuffing was a different, distinct thing. Does anybody know?