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From A Hamburger Today

If It's on a Pita, Is It a Burger? Kenn's Broome Street Bar in SoHo

I've been eating the burgers at Kenn's since the early 1970's and they were always one of the best burgers in the city. As to ongoing discussion about burgers, the bun is only important to in a secondary sense. A good bun can't save mediocre meat, but it can enhance terrific meat. Otherwise the best burger in the city is at Wolfgang's Steakhouse at lunchtime because they use the trimmings of 28 day-aged prime beef to make the burger. Nothing matches it including Peter Lugers lunch time burger which I would put in second place. Similar to Kenn's, another very good old school NY restaurant burger which is overlooked is Noho Star.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

"And in the rating system you use, their opinions wouldn't carry a lot of weight because they can't rate as many restaurants as others do."

But I just posted a list of people, some of whom make quite modest incomes, who rated more restaurants than people who have significant wealth.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Well your prior post made a snarky comment saying that it should be called, "The Rich New Yorker's Guide to Dining in the U.S. and Europe." Your last post tones that rhetoric down quite a bit which I appreciate. As to who actually practices this hobby, I took a look at the list of our top weighted participants which included exactly two wealthy businessmen from NYC (me included LOL.) Others professions on the list were:

Human resources manager in London
Project manager at a financial printing company in London
Investment banker in London
retired architect NYC and Paris
young attorney in NYC
professor in N. Cal
psychologist in NYC
professor in Chicago
Nuclear Arms expert in Wash DC
Political writer in London
Accounting clerk in London
eBay seller from Canada
Fashion model from Paris
Actuary from California
Housewife from California
Computer consultant from London
Computer executive from Northern Cal.

While some of the people on the list are high income earners, there are also those who do not make a lot of money but who save in order to take two or three trips a year for the purpose of dining. You have also twisted around a comment of mine when you said,

"And while experience with fine dining might be necessary to be an authority on high-end restaurants, I'm not convinced that experience alone necessarily makes one an expert."

Nowhere have I made that claim. What I have said is that experience is a fundamental component of being an expert on any topic, and by offering a blended opinion of people who might qualify to be experts, the results are more reliable than other guides on the market.


From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Julia I wish you would read the book before making incorrect statements. In terms of the10 highest rated restaurants in the book they are in order;

1. Troisgros
2. Bras
3. Fat Duck
4. L'Arpege
5. Pierre Gagnaire
6. Urasawa
7. El Bulli
8. L'Astrance
9. L'Arnsbourg
9. The French Laundry

None of them are in NYC. In fact the only that are located 2 in the U.S. are in California. Secondly, your notion about who the book is directed at is misplaced and is unnecessarilly insulting to the people who actively travel to dine out and who do not earn large incomes. There are many people who fit that description who participated in the survey. But your raising it in this context does raise the question, if you are not someone who actively travels around the U.S. and Europe in an attempt to learn about cuisine and to better fine tune your palate, on what basis would you be an authoritiy on this subject matter?

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From A Hamburger Today

If It's on a Pita, Is It a Burger? Kenn's Broome Street Bar in SoHo

I've been eating the burgers at Kenn's since the early 1970's and they were always one of the best burgers in the city. As to ongoing discussion about burgers, the bun is only important to in a secondary sense. A good bun can't save mediocre meat, but it can enhance terrific meat. Otherwise the best burger in the city is at Wolfgang's Steakhouse at lunchtime because they use the trimmings of 28 day-aged prime beef to make the burger. Nothing matches it including Peter Lugers lunch time burger which I would put in second place. Similar to Kenn's, another very good old school NY restaurant burger which is overlooked is Noho Star.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

"And in the rating system you use, their opinions wouldn't carry a lot of weight because they can't rate as many restaurants as others do."

But I just posted a list of people, some of whom make quite modest incomes, who rated more restaurants than people who have significant wealth.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Well your prior post made a snarky comment saying that it should be called, "The Rich New Yorker's Guide to Dining in the U.S. and Europe." Your last post tones that rhetoric down quite a bit which I appreciate. As to who actually practices this hobby, I took a look at the list of our top weighted participants which included exactly two wealthy businessmen from NYC (me included LOL.) Others professions on the list were:

Human resources manager in London
Project manager at a financial printing company in London
Investment banker in London
retired architect NYC and Paris
young attorney in NYC
professor in N. Cal
psychologist in NYC
professor in Chicago
Nuclear Arms expert in Wash DC
Political writer in London
Accounting clerk in London
eBay seller from Canada
Fashion model from Paris
Actuary from California
Housewife from California
Computer consultant from London
Computer executive from Northern Cal.

While some of the people on the list are high income earners, there are also those who do not make a lot of money but who save in order to take two or three trips a year for the purpose of dining. You have also twisted around a comment of mine when you said,

"And while experience with fine dining might be necessary to be an authority on high-end restaurants, I'm not convinced that experience alone necessarily makes one an expert."

Nowhere have I made that claim. What I have said is that experience is a fundamental component of being an expert on any topic, and by offering a blended opinion of people who might qualify to be experts, the results are more reliable than other guides on the market.


From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Julia I wish you would read the book before making incorrect statements. In terms of the10 highest rated restaurants in the book they are in order;

1. Troisgros
2. Bras
3. Fat Duck
4. L'Arpege
5. Pierre Gagnaire
6. Urasawa
7. El Bulli
8. L'Astrance
9. L'Arnsbourg
9. The French Laundry

None of them are in NYC. In fact the only that are located 2 in the U.S. are in California. Secondly, your notion about who the book is directed at is misplaced and is unnecessarilly insulting to the people who actively travel to dine out and who do not earn large incomes. There are many people who fit that description who participated in the survey. But your raising it in this context does raise the question, if you are not someone who actively travels around the U.S. and Europe in an attempt to learn about cuisine and to better fine tune your palate, on what basis would you be an authoritiy on this subject matter?

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Gee I love a good firestorm, Let's see, where do I start. First of all, Michael Nagrant's comment about shilling is pretty silly considering that I have published a survey where the scores and comments are driven by ratings from more than 900 people. All I add to the mix is to judge how a resstaurant performed based on expectations. As to the comments about being too close to chefs, Nagrant obviously didn't read the introduction to my book. What sets my guide apart from the traditional food press (at least what I hope sets it apart) is that is attempts to help diners get a better meal than the average diner gets. If Nagrant isn't interested in how to get a better meal at a restaurant, or doesn't believe in the concept, well that's okay. But my guide is directed at people who are interested in improving their dining experiences, rather than perpetuating the mediocrity that often passes for fine dining at many restaurants. But in order to do that you can't dine anonymously. You have to somehow communicate to the restaurant that you want their A game and not their B game and as soon as you do that, you can't be anonymous any longer. . Finally, Ed, don't you write for the Times which would make you sort of biased? But besides that, on what basis would you say that my critique of Bruni's review of Dovetail is unfair? While I was a bit strident in my tone (editorial style :-), I suspect that the assertions I made about Fraser's technical proficiency, compared to Humm's and Bouleys, are probably true. Humm spent something like seven years in the Pont de Brent kitchen and you can taste his training in his food. Fraser's food does not have any of the sheen or polish that you will find in Humm's food, let along Bouley's food. Unfortunately, the reviewer for the New York Times wasn't able to tell the difference and as a result, I was cranky after I followed his recommendation so excuse my rant about it (not really but you know what I mean,)


From A Hamburger Today

If It's on a Pita, Is It a Burger? Kenn's Broome Street Bar in SoHo

I love this place. The first time I went there was in the fall of 1979 and, correct me if I'm wrong, I think the name of the place was Ken and Bob's Broome Street Bar. They had a friendly macho type guy with gray hair that bar tended. I saw him later on working at Fanelli's. I used to drink Bloody Mary's and beer there at Ken's. I thought they had good pub grup and the burgers were good, although I don't remember pitas back then. I returned frequently through through the years, but I haven't been there in a long while.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

I suspect that most of the restaurants in this booklet don't have what any statistician or social scientist would call a valid sample. Yet even if they did, so what? Restaurants can't be grasped and retained like a work of literature or art, and are too dynamic and subjected to economic tides and the personalities of those who own them. Truly one man's meat is another man's poison and there is no accounting for taste (to invoke two metaphors or cliches). Also, as I have written on boards before, restaurants almost always get worse. (More so than ever these days.) In the end, every food lover must become, and eventually does become, his own critic.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Great article! If you're looking for good restaurants in the area check out www.foodjoker.com. Great selection of places to eat and great site. Available also in 8 languages.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Finally - I don't disagree with Steve about everything. We agree about Mr. Bruni. I dined at Michael's Genuine in Miami this week - Mr. Bruni's 4th or 5th best new restaurant of the year. Left me scratching my head. It's not a bad place - it's quite ok. But almost the best new restaurant in the US? Was about on a par - give or take a bit - with Bistro Aix here in Jacksonville FL (near where I live) - which serves similar food. Bistro Aix is a great Jacksonville restaurant - but I don't think anyone would confuse it with one of the best restaurants in the country. RobynG

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

Regarding rating restaurants - I personally did not rate any restaurant I haven't dined at within the last 3 years or so. What's the point of rating my meal at Troisgros when I dined there 20 years ago? FWIW - we were never told that our ratings would be weighted by the number of places we reviewed. If that were the case - I could have rated dozens. But again - what would be the point of rating a place where I dined from the 1970's through the 1990's? RobynG

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

The simple fact of the matter is that out of these 900 participants - a sufficient number hadn't dined at Dieter Muller or Vendome in Germany (both 3 star Michelin) to warrant inclusion in the guide. I fought hard to get them included - even if I was the only participant who had dined there - but I lost. So DM and Vendome are excluded - and Joe's Stone Crabs is in. RobynG

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

I would have to disagree with lostfourwords and say that Steve is a critic in the idealistic sense of the term, to the readers of his guide. He makes it clear that his goal is to get you the restaurants "A" game. If this is truly what he intends, then who better to provide reviews than a man renowned for getting the best out of restaurants. After reading his tips, he would expect you to get the best out of each restaurant, and he would therefore be the ideal critic, in the sense that you are now receiving the restaurant's "A" game, as well as him (like an ideal critic, he is reviewing what you are getting)

That said, I would much rather read a guide such as this, presided over by one such as Steve, over the Zagat guide.
Have you ever read those?
They're so boring!
I'm not planning however, on buying any of these guides. The blog posts are much more interesting.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

This argument reminds me of my love-hate relationship with OAD: I enjoy living vicariously through SP's adventures with his Black Card, but he's no critic (in the idealistic sense of the term); and I certainly can't fathom how he could or would objectively collect and synthesize the opinions of others. That doesn't seem to be the strength of his blog--I mean, who was asking for this? Really. He was supposed to be Alan Richman--minus the ability to write in grammatically correct sentences--not Tim Zagat.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

"While some of the people on the list are high income earners, there are also those who do not make a lot of money but who save in order to take two or three trips a year for the purpose of dining." And in the rating system you use, their opinions wouldn't carry a lot of weight because they can't rate as many restaurants as others do. There may be merits to the system you've come up with, but it does inherently favor the opinions of wealthy people who can afford to eat regularly at expensive restaurants, and it seems to me that the resulting guide is also aimed at them, for better or for worse.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

I have, in fact, read the book (not cover to cover, but I've looked at it pretty closely), and if you can point out any inaccurate statements I've made I'll be happy to correct them. Out of the top 50 North American restaurants in the book, 32 are either in California or New York state, 15 of them in NYC. Seven are located somewhere besides the east or west coast, two of those in the midwest.

As far my notion of who the book is directed at, it's taken directly from the cover, which says it's "the ultimate guide for destination diners." In your intro, you define this as "someone who plans weekends and vacation travel around dining out." I didn't say there's anything wrong with that--it makes sense to me, actually--but it does take money, especially to eat at the kinds of places listed in the guide. And while experience with fine dining might be necessary to be an authority on high-end restaurants, I'm not convinced that experience alone necessarily makes one an expert.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

My criticism of the Opinionated About Dining guide is mostly based on the probability that most readers of Plotnicki's blog live in New York, which would bias the data toward that city. I know that he solicited responses from around the country and that many of his respondents travel a lot, but if a high percentage of the reviews came from New Yorkers it would probably cause New York restaurants to rank higher than they would otherwise. I'm not saying that New York doesn't have a lot of great restaurants, or even that more Chicago places should have been on the list, just that the survey may be flawed.

The issue of Plotnicki not dining out anonymously is tangential in a way--as others have pointed out, his opinions aren't the only ones in the guide. But again, if a lot of the respondents are fans of his blog, they're likely to agree with his philosophy on dining out and apply it themselves, at least if they have the necessary clout. Which is nice for them, but makes their dining experience less typical of what most diners can expect, whether or not they "communicate to the restaurant that [they] want their A game and not their B game." Everyone wants that, don't they? But not everyone has the connections, cash, arrogance, or whatever else it takes to ensure they'll get it. Of course, the guide is specifically aimed at "destination diners," or people with enough money to plan their travels around fine dining. Maybe Plotnicki should retitle it "The Rich New Yorker's Guide to Dining in the U.S. and Europe" just to make it clear who should read it.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

I think you're right, Tamara. I was probably premature with my opinions.
I'll have more to say after I've had a chance to read the entire guide.

From Serious Eats

Early Returns on New Dining Survey Not So Favorable

I don't see how anybody's feelings about Plotnicki personally have anything to do with the validity of the guide. The guide's ratings are not based on his own opinions of the places included. If people don't like him, that's their business - but it's important to separate out the guide from the man. I'm sure some people hate Tim and Nina Zagat too, but that really doesn't have anything to do with their guide. If a restaurant in Chicago (or elsewhere) didn't make the cut - it's because it didn't. To take that personally or to somehow link that with Plotnicki's personality is just silly.

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