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I love pumpkin pie, sweet potato pie, and I will eat butternut squash right out of the rind once it's roasted. I bake pumpkin bread and pumpkin pie in autumn, not really for the holidays so much. I generally love squash. I once made pies from a squash in Peru just because it was a novelty. These squashes/gourds are so big it takes two people to carry one. It's important to remember that pies aren't just a desert - they are often the main course, filled with meats, vegetables, and spices. My family usually has pumpkin pie around Thanksgiving and Christmas, but we also get tired of traditional holiday foods. Frequently, for Thanksgiving or Christmas, we will decide to have something different at the table. Last year we had an incredible Italian dish that my father prepared for Christmas, and I smoked chicken and baby back ribs for Thanksgiving. It didn't change the spirit of the holidays at all for us. So, I guess the important thing is that you enjoy what you cook and eat during the holidays.

Forgive this long comment! I'm hoping it will be helpful. My daughter and I made three savory pies yesterday (we made beef pies, like a Cornish pasty--finely diced beef, grated potatoes and onions). Both my daughter and I make very good pie crusts--I have 50 years of experience--but we are often frustrated at the inconsistencies and the problem of just the right moisture to flour ratio to have dough that rolls out easily, is thick enough to work with and make nice fluted edges, and is both tender and flaky.

We followed this recipe and were thrilled with the results. Our "test kitchen" experiments in the process might be useful for responding to a couple of the comments here. 1.) Use very cold, unsalted butter as in the recipe. If you use salted butter for a pie crust, plus the recommended salt (or even reduced amounts or no salt) it will be too salty tasting for many people. 2.) We tried the full amount of sugar and also reducing the sugar. Even for a savory pie, we liked the full amount of sugar best. 3.) We used the full amount of water/vodka and also reduced amounts, to experiment. Yes, it looks sticky with the full amount, but remember that some of that moisture will go away in baking (that is the function of the alcohol.), so the extra is needed to have a moist,flaky crust, not a less moist, crumbling one. The extra moisture also allows for the use of extra flour in rolling, which is very handy. 4.) Chill this dough for several hours and work fast with it. The high fat content dough benefits from being very firm when you're starting to work. Otherwise you'll have a very soft dough that rolls out nicely but is difficult to pick up and place on the pie tin. (That is one advantage of a pastry cloth. You can pick the whole thing up and put it in the fridge for a moment to chill and firm, then go back to work on it.) This dough can be re-rolled easily without toughening, but still, work lightly. Use plenty of flour to keep it workable--we found it didn't dry the dough out or toughen it, as can happen with regular crusts. (The alcohol again) 5. This recipe gave us plenty of dough for easy rolling to the right size and with more than enough for a pretty fluted edge--no need for patching and no skimpy edges that need foil protection to keep them from browning too much. We chilled them about an hour before baking so the edges would keep their shape.

Taste test: All the pies were wonderful but the one made exactly according to the recipe--exactly--was voted the best by the taste-testers who didn't know how we had made them. Not much difference in any of them, but still, the exact recipe--full amount of liquid and sugar--was considered the most flaky, tender and flavorful. As a side note: Using a food processor made this very, very easy (We also followed the number of pulses as given in the recipe). But, it can be made without a processor if the same cutting and distributing motion is used to combine flour and fat. Baking at 325 degrees for about 1 1/2 hours cooked the meat and potato filling perfectly and produced a uniformly beautiful, golden brown and delicious tasting crust.

Try this recipe for your next pie and make it exactly according to the recipe, without fear. You can do it differently the next time if you want, but the first time, trust the recipe--developed by people with tremendous knowledge and skill and with a scientific not gimmicky reason for their suggestions--and I think you'll be very happy with the results.

CROISSANTS CROISSANTS CROISSANTS so yummy!

cjavel, that worked! Baking it per your instructions above resulted in a perfect golden brown crust. Thank you very much!

Ok ok. Enough with the lard comments! The idea is to enjoy this recipe once in a while. Not every meal! As with anything moderation is the key.....

Could someone please recommend a temperature and time to bake this pie crust? I tried this pie crust today following the baking instructions from my rhubarb pie recipe which specified 30-minutes at 450-degrees. The crust turned out way too dark.

Hi Vicki..I am an Iowa girl. but have lived in the Southwest a long time..so glad to hear that you are located there:) It is so beautiful in Iowa inJune and July...minus the humidity of course!! I grew up outside of Dubuque-You?

Here's an update for you-for some reason the food issue lessened a bit when I wrote "No Outside Food Please" on the large whiteboard sign at the entrance of our cafe. We have had signs on each table since we opened 3 years ago but find that folks ignore them...see last posting, right?!

Anyway, we have no walls separating us from the rest of the library..oh how we wish we did. So it seems that while the Library staff here (who are valued regular customers and truly wonderful folks) support our no food policy, they allow or overlook food and drinks in other Library areas. Hard to draw a line on the floor and say "See? This is the Library and THIS is the cafe..Food is okay here but not over THERE." And there is our food dilemma-even with Library support.

Also, to make our lives more interesting, the Library is under renovation for the next year...80 computers were available and now that is down to 30...and 2 of these 30 sit in the cafe. Again, the way we are constructed means that people waiting for these 2 computers (reserved at the reference desk) sit at our tables and do not purchase any cafe items.

Then, our safe is far away from my office where I do the money managing everyday...I now have to make my way thru these folks carrying the money bags...imagine how secure that feels.

The lady in the office next to mine is a grant writer and organizes the use of our large meeting room. Oftentimes, she is on a teleconference or hosting a "webinar". Throngs of people outside our offices waiting for their computer times are NOT conducive to business. Because you know Mr. Youtube and his teenage buddies are all using the same computer and commenting or playing the latest rap video without considering the others around them. Also, people walk into our offices (Labeled STAFF ONLY!!!) looking for the printers tied to these 2 computers.

I was told today that these 2 computers would be removed from the Cafe-hooray-can't happen soon enough. So, one difficulty down...just the food and messy people to go! Hope you are hanging in there! Have a great weekend-Julie

Julie,

Sorry it's taken so long to post here!

I had a meeting with our library board and they are in total support of our coffee shop.

They are also understanding of the public's desire to have a place at the library for family eating.

While they had planned for folks to come to the library and buy items from the cafe and eat or drink at the available tables, they did not plan for people bringing their own food. Since this is a public library they would like to accommodate their patrons.

I think they have decided to amend our lease, with no extra cost to us, to include the 6 tables in the entryway. The four tables outside are to be for public use.

This really works for me as I figure the outside tables are least profitable. Here in Iowa they are not used at all during winter and later this summer it will be to hot to sit outside. The tables are metal. I have also stopped maintaining those tables to discourage people from using them! Since they are not part of the lease I feel it's not my responsibility to clean off the bird poop, except for my customers who want to use them, of course!

I highly recommend you meet with your foundation people, they support your shop, yes? and find out what their expectations are for your space. Let them know how detrimental to your business the practice of customers bringing food and beverage into your coffee shop. I know you said you chase them to outside tables, that is good and you must continue to do this. I would encourage you to put signage on your tables letting people know which tables are for coffee shop use exclusively (with the support of the library) and which can be used for the public (hopefully none of them) and be very vocal about enforcing this decision.

I personally told a lady unloading her fast food onto a table the other day that she needed to take it outside. She replied that it was raining (it wasn't!) so I told her she needed to take it inside and she did. I let her know those are my tables and to move on!

Yes the table had signage that said tables reserved for our customers!

Once you let people take over your space they will continue to do so. Most customers appreciate the signs and feel people bringing food in are rude.

Get the support of your library and enforce it!

By the by, I spoke with another library coffee shop and they pay a bit less rent that I do but they only rent the counter and the space behind it so the serving portion of the shop is library property but they still maintain it and ask people to leave if they are busy. They said while they allow people to bring in food and drink it is rare and they really hate it when people leave their trash to be cleaned up! Can you imagine?

Look forward to hearing how you're doing

Vicki

Julie,

Thanks for all your comments. I too have used the health department to discourage folks from bringing in outside items. However, when I checked with them the other day I learned they HAVE NO REGULATIONS regarding restaurant seating and tables. They recommend that the tables are cleaned and sanitized a minimum of every 4 hours! Consumers beware! Can you believe that? Behind that counter I practically have to wash my hands every minute and sanitize everything with bleach water after each use, but hey after it leaves the counter you all are on your own! It also turns out that my insurance already covers the outdoor and indoor seating areas so I will meet with the library to see how I can get those tables in the lease for as little money as possible. They are extremely interested in our success and I think are somewhat disappointed in the folks who said "if you build it we will be there". Not that we are struggling but I think that allowing people to bring in food and drink is very detrimental to what I'm trying to accomplish here. I will meet with them next week and keep you posted. For the most part if I ask people to leave they do so as they consider the library tables are something of a picnic ground. They do not know that I pay the library rent, how else would it work? There is another library coffee shop not far away and I know the owner, she has the same problem and I'm going to give her a call and see how she is handling this situation.

TTFN
Vicki

Hi Vicki-Oh boy do I have a few comments about the outside food and drink!! Since we are located inside the public library there are food and drink restrictions already in place re: maintaining clean surfaces for computer use, books, and study areas. However, once some folks enter the cafe space all bets seem to be off! We have had entire families come in toting their Taco Bell items, fried chicken and even a 6pack of brewskies! We do have signs posted that are pretty blunt in stating "No outside food please" but ...?! I do try to gently remind folks that the Maricopa County Board of Health makes the rules and we must follow them. I do offer these folks a table on outdoor patio but as we approach the AZ summer weather that becomes less of an option. Perhaps that solves a bit of the problem for us. Making the Board of Health the"bad guy" does seem to work with most folks.....so far!

Our Library is beginning to undergo renovation of the lower level which houses, among other things, the entire children's area. This area has been relocated to just near our Cafe and means that we now have to become more family-friendly...and that opens up other cans of worms...but also, how do I handle the mom of the toddler with the little box of Cheerios? That IS outside foood, right? I am a mother myself so I have compassion for the situation...best thing for us is to create a "Kid's Cafe" area with smaller furniture and a kid's menu from the items we already stock...or at least that's the idea so far.

To answer your question about our business structure, I can tell you that we are funded by the Friends of the Tempe Library-see their website also. I do know that we also have grant monies from the Virginia Piper trust...but never enough!!! We do also have non-profit status but I am not sure how those details work.

I hope this info is helpful-got a little long winded! Have a great weekend! J.

Big time WAY, but I can't even keep in the the house, as the hubby is a HUGE NO WAY! I would eat it by the bunch if I could, but he can't come near me if he even smells it on my breath. :(

just a short comment to louisey on "how good this internet system is", its so good, that I managed to get you so many links for the chicken recipe from Omars, you shouldn't have to ask "a friend", you have the entire world at your fingertips, its not rocket science...........just Omars fried chicken....please, Enjoy all the chicken from Omars you can muster up an appetite for..........the secret is in the
link below!

http://search.aol.com/aol/search?s_it=searchbox.webhome&q=fried+chicken+recipe+from+Omar+Khayams+in+Manila

Julie,

Vicki here! I would be very interested to know what you serve in your coffee shop. We have good loyal customers and all say they appreciate our being there. How many people do you have on staff? To many questions!

Vicki