Boing! Rubbery meat help for brisket/short ribs, please
To give you a glimpse of my cooking experience...before a couple months ago, my experience with cooking beef was pretty much limited to the pan. Then I started exploring, and I've had two meat issues that I can't figure out...I'm sure you guys can help me.
Here's what I ended up cooking:
1. A small rack of rubbery short ribs (2 hours in the oven at 200 as instructed by the Greenmarket guy who sold the meat to me)
2. 1.8 lbs of rubbery brisket (45 min at 325 and then 45 at 250 as instructed by the "marinated brisket" recipe in the food processor bible)
What's going on? I searched brisket on this site and saw that one person was instructed to cook the meat for 10 hours at 200...? If that's the way to go, what are these two hour recipes about?
I'm so mystified. Help! Tired of wasting my meat!
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18 Comments:
2-3/4 to 3-1/2 hours or more....
If the meat doesn't pull away with a fork, just cook it longer.
Short ribs- 350 deg oven (3-4hours) or simmer on stove top (2-3/4 to 3-1/2 hours)
Brisket- 350 deg oven or simmer on stove top (same instructions as above)
CJ McD at 10:38PM on 10/20/09
You just needed to let it cook a little bit longer. Meats that need to be slow-cooked like brisket, ribs, and pot roast tend to get tough before they get tender, You have to give it enough time to break down the muscle fiber. A little bit of acid, like tomato, or vinegar, or wine helps, too. Check with a fork at the end of the specified cooking time; if the meat does not slip off the fork, cook it longer. However, 10 hours at 200 for a brisket? Maybe in a crock pot. As for your rack of ribs at 200 degrees--I would cook it at minimum of 300 degrees. Sounds like they were undercooked. Just leave it in longer next time. Also you might want to get an oven thermometer to make sure that you oven is getting hot enough. Or cook on the stove in a big pot.
PattyB at 10:43PM on 10/20/09
Interesting! The concept of the cooking the meat for longer when it's already cooked through is foreign to me. I figured it could only get tougher, drier and bouncier. I could play racquetball with this brisket, which we ate half of since, you know, it's still food. Can I just stick the other half in the oven tomorrow?
Myszka at 10:46PM on 10/20/09
This information is life changing! The meat gets tough before it gets tender?! I guess that's basic information to some people, but I had no clue. I'm so glad I posted the question...thanks guys.
By the way, the brisket had been marinating overnight in (soy sauce, garlic, onions, mustard powder, maple syrup, paprika, etc.)
Oh, and here's where the 10-hour brisket in the oven discussion is, if you're curious:
http://www.seriouseats.com/talk/2009/09/slow-cooked-beef-brisket.html
Myszka at 11:00PM on 10/20/09
Q "If that's the way to go, what are these two hour recipes about?"
A Hacks having the nerve to think they are actual cooks.
I am less familiar with brisket. I have only eaten it prepared two ways. Either it was slow smoked with a dry rub for many, many hours over very low heat, or the brisket was marinated in corned beef spices and then slowly braised in the oven. Low temps and long cook times are crucial in breaking down fat and cartilege in brisket.
For short ribs I am a little more experienced. They are also a cut that takes longer cooking times to fully realize their potential. Batali has a shortrib recipe called Brasato al Barolo that is outstanding.
http://www.mariobatali.com/recipes_shortribs.cfm
I have a friend that cooks them like this.
"lemongrass (1 whole stalk chopped)
ginger (1 large hand, chunked)
yellow onions (2 small-to-medium rough-chopped)
carrots (2 or 3 skin on, cut in 2-3" pieces)
juice oranges (2 quartered, peels on)
garlic (whole head split in half, skin on)
thai bird chilies (9+ depending on how many ribs..usually 9-12 peppers chopped)
green onions (bout 2 bunches, whites only)
soy (low sodium)
tamari (low sodium)
mirin
sesame oil (toasted)
beef stock (my own from the freezer)
oj (most citrus juice works..the other day i had a bottle of bolthouse mango-lemonade and i tossed that in and it was fan-fucking-tastic)
honey (bout 1/2c)
sesame seeds (black & toasted white)
shichimi togarashi
after the ribs are cooked & removed from the gunk in the dutch oven, i do the usual strain and reduction (by 50%) of the liquid and add one more shot of honey (usually orange blossom or clover..about 1/4c) and the sesame seeds and then toss the ribs back in..and the DO goes back into the oven at 350 for about 40 min turning the meat every 10 min to coat evenly and glaze. serve over short grain/sushi rice with reserved braised carrots and top w/sliced green onions..."
I haven't tried that recipe but just from her description and the ingredients I know it would be delicious.
climbhighak at 11:03PM on 10/20/09
I braise a lot of meat–beef brisket, short ribs, veal osso buco, pork shoulder, etc. 325°F. for 3-1/2 to 4 hours in the oven is typical. Pork can go a little less, actually, but I wouldn't attempt to cook it below 275°F.
You can also braise it on the stovetop, but keep it to a low simmer. Boiling the meat makes it tough, and cooks out the flavor. The same is true for chicken.
Also, avoid putting acid (vinegar, citrus) in the marinade or braise. This will also toughen the meat. If you want a little balsamic, or similar flavoring, add it at the end.
salpico at 11:40PM on 10/20/09
If you live at altitude, it will take longer for the collagen in the meat to break down. I live at 4,500 ft. and usually have to extend recommended braising times by about 1/2 (so if it says to braise for 3 hours, I have to do it for 4.5 hours at least).
okupin at 1:05AM on 10/21/09
Ribs and brisket never take under 3 hours ever.Short ribs need braising in liquid for tenderness. Holy cow who made you waste that kind of money I would track his ass down. The ribs you can braise after you cooked them on stove. Brisket I would braise too and tender it up. Find that guy and give him a piece of your mind. Freaking Meat Butthead. I call bullshit on him.
JerzeeTomato at 3:50AM on 10/21/09
Remember it's like sex : low and slow,the longer the better.
jfitz at 7:40AM on 10/21/09
I call bullshit too....makes us Good Meat Men look bad...lol
onepercent99 at 8:48AM on 10/21/09
I braise my brisket in a cast iron Dutch oven. I usually season it with some Montreal Steak seasoning, add a little meat tenderizer, and score the fat side with a sharp knife. Then I brown it, fat side down for a few minutes, turn it over so the fat side is up.Add a cup or so of beef broth or red wide, cover tightly, and cook at 350 for a minimum of 3 1/2 hours. It comes out tender and tasty!
1stmakearoux at 9:49AM on 10/21/09
Ciao. There are a couple of things to think about when you want to braise something.
The first is the pot...use a good heavy Dutch Oven or clay pot.
Sear the meat for a few moments in a saute pan, you are killing off surface bacteria, and the searing/browning will add flavor.
Deglaze the saute pan with wine or stock and use it in the braise liquid. Once you arrange the meat in the Dutch oven, add your liquid, it doesn't have to cover the meat but should come about halfway up the pot.
Put the Dutch oven with the meat & liquid into a cold oven.
Keep the temperature low for the first 2 hours: around 200F. You are literally melting the collagen in the connective tissue. If you go higher, the meat seizes up and gets tough. After two hours, go higher in temp to around 300F and then start checking the meat. When it's fork tender its done.
Braising is a technique that is very forgiving as long as you start with a low temp, and plan on at least 4 hours or so. Don't give up.
Judith klinger at 10:20AM on 10/21/09
There are some great tips on this thread! Another super easy way to cook brisket:
Slice 2 medium white onions into rings, saute in a couple of tablespoons of olive oil until crisp-tender, add about 1/2 cup Heinz Chili Sauce and a couple of tablespoons of apple cider. Season your brisket with some pepper, cover it with the onion mixture and wrap tightly in a couple of layers of aluminum foil. But the brisket in a roasting pan and cook in the oven at 325 degrees for at least 5 hours/until fork-tender.
I slice this and serve with garlic mashed potatoes and broccoli rabe with lemon and butter.
Junie at 11:13AM on 10/21/09
ps - Heinz Chili Sauce is kind of like a thinner version of ketchup. Tomato paste/puree could be substituted.
Junie at 11:15AM on 10/21/09
Something I am not clear about - did you marinate the brisket and then cook it "dry," or did you cook it with some of the marinade or another liquid? I do brisket a LOT and it's something that needs to be cooked slowly, WITH moisture in the pan. Braising as opposed to baking. I believe that short ribs are the same, as I've never seen a recipe for them that gets done quickly or dry.
Here are two ways that I cook brisket:
1) Put in pan, sprinkle on onion soup, add a bottle of cocktail sauce (optional), pour in can of beer. Bake at 325(F) for a long time until it falls apart. Roughly mid-morning until dinner time.
2) Put in pan. Add around some scrubbed, sliced carrots (not thin slices or they disappear - more like chunks) and/or sweet potatoes and a lot of prunes. Pour in about a cup of red wine or so. Bake as above. You might need ot add a bit more wine. I've also used cider vinegar for this one.
3) Put in pan. Spread over a bunch of chopped canned tomatoes with juice. Add some chopped onion, a few hot peppers, and some more onion. Bake as above.
A note: If you don't mind using disposable stuff, my mother (who learned the first recipe as a young bride and passed it down) would line the pan with huge sheets of foil and then close them over the meat and accessories before putting it into the oven. You can also cook the brisket in a crockpot if it is small enough.
As for short ribs, most of the recipes I've used include a braise, tomato or red wine, and a long, slow cooking. It sounds like the meat is technically cooked but not really "done" when you have been taking it out. Pick a rainy afternoon and try a long braise and see what a difference it makes.
As for the already-cooked meat, I am pretty sure you can put it back in and cook it for a longer period, see if that helps. Meat should NEVER bounce (the occasional meatball being the exception).
morgancain at 12:44PM on 10/22/09
@climbhighak: What's the difference between braising and cooking in a low temperature over a long period? The amount of liquid?
@salpico: You suggested avoiding acid and atleast one other person here recommended acid. Hmm...
@JerzeeTomato: The Grazin Angus Acres! They told me on two different occasions that I should cook the ribs at 200 or 250 for about two hours. The one time, I think it was baby back ribs and it was fine and the second time it was short ribs and those were meat rubber bands.
@1stmakearoux and Judith Klinger: Yeah, I was wondering if it would help to brown the brisket first. Also, I wasn't sure if the fat side should be up, but figured yes since the fat dripping down would be better than the fat just running into the pan. I have a dutch oven, but I just put the meat in a non stick roasting pan...what difference does it make to use my le creuset oven instead? And while we're talking about braising, is it nice to have an actual braiser? Does that shape come in handy?
Also, I didn't know this: "You are literally melting the collagen in the connective tissue."
@Junie: You suggested cooking the brisket at 325 degrees, and the temperature suggestions really vary on here. Any idea how your 325 brisket compares to a 200 brisket?
@morgancain: Yes, I marinated the brisket overnight in the roasting pan and then cooked it in the liquid, which there was a thick coating of in the pan (there wasn't enough to slosh around). (What temperature counts as braising??) This was in a Food Processor Bible recipe.
Short ribs aren't done dry either? Not defending this, but the Greenmarket's Angus Acres guy suggested a dry rub.
I still have the other half of the meat in the fridge...I might stick it back in the oven tonight just to see what happens. I'm going to use ground beef to make tacos, though. I know how to cook that. Taco night!
Myszka at 1:04PM on 10/22/09
@Myszka: Braising is low and slow cooking with the pan covered and using a flavored braising liquid. Not necessary to cover the meat (that would be stewing or just plain boiling) but you should have the braising liquid at least half way up whatever meat is being braised.
The other method I was referring to is basically smoking of the brisket. No liquid involved. You could also roast in your oven but the smoke component I feel is critical for brisket.
climbhighak at 11:13PM on 10/23/09
Everyone here was so helpful that I'm going to give the brisket another go tonight. The stakes are raised...six pounds of meat...for two of us.
By the way, I cooked the rest of the bouncy brisket last time and it softened up. It needed like 2 more hours at 200...
Myszka at 10:44AM on 10/27/09