Passover pasta rules?
I'm confused. Help! I'm trying to wrap my arms around Passover meal do's and don'ts. I read that pasta is considered a non-Kosher food during Passover because it contains flour/wheat.
Could you skirt around that by making pasta out of Matzoh? Or, using the same Matzoh ingredients and turning them into pasta before it's baked off? So, instead of making crackers, you would boil the dough for lasagna noodles or similar?
Thanks for any info you can share!
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24 Comments:
there are kosher for passover noodles available in the supermarket, but anything that you would try to make at home would not be considered kosher by an observant jew.
cybercita at 9:56PM on 04/03/09
Oddly, there was an episode of New Jewish Cuisine that used matzoh instead of noodles in a lasagna dish for passover. I'm not Jewish, but all sorts of food rules interest me, and now that you mention it, I'm not sure why matzoh is okay, except that it's the traditional unleavened bread. But it's still wheat...hmmm...I hope someone comes along and explains that.
Anyway, he just briefly soaked the matzoh so they were a little moist and wouldn't suck up all the sauce. Not so much that they fell apart. And then layered them just like lasagna noodles. And the sauce was meatless, because there was cheese in the lasagna.
dbcurrie at 9:58PM on 04/03/09
Hmmm...excellent! Thanks so much. So, would noodles, as long as they're Kosher noodles from the store, then be OK during Passover?
WickedGoodDinner at 10:17PM on 04/03/09
@dbcurrie - kosher for passover means not leavened, not just the type of flour used (b/c the jews had to scurry out of egypt, couldn't wait for leavening to happen)...traditionally defined, something that would be leavened (so not ok for Passover) would be flour that's touched water for more than 18 minutes (i don't know why them's the rules, that's just what i've grown up hearing); matzoh (and other kosher for passover items) isn't leavened, and there's rabbinical supervision to make sure of it...hope that helps :)
and @wickedgooddinner - yes, kosher for passover noodles (make sure the label says kosher for passover, and not just kosher/parve - they should be in a separate section of the store, usually all the passover foods are kept together) would be ok for passover; there are also lots of other options you could use depending on your recipe - like dbcurrie suggested, matzoh sometimes works as a noodle replacement in lasagna/caserole/kugel type dishes. good luck!
billyburgwife at 10:38PM on 04/03/09
interestingly, strictly observant jews do not eat any matzo that has become wet during passover. this means no matzo balls, no fried matzo, no cakes made with matzo meal, no matzo lasagna.
the passover noodles are made out of potato starch, so be warned that the texture may be outside of what you define as edible. good luck.
@billyburgwife, 18 minutes represents both "chai" and the amount of time it is calculated for the wet flour to start fermenting and self leavening.
cybercita at 10:53PM on 04/03/09
I am not jew... so I do not know much about this subject. But I wonder... would a rice-based or other non-wheat pasta be OK for passover? Just wondering...
MadelynRodriguez at 11:28PM on 04/03/09
@billyburgwife, my confusion about the wheat was that I thought it was one of the forbidden grains.
@wickedgooddinner, if your friends keep kosher during passover, you're probably out of luck trying to cook anything for them at home, because there's no way you keep a kosher kitchen. If they're as loose with the rules as my friends are, just ask them what's acceptable and what isn't. What one person thinks is an acceptable stretch of the rules might be something that another thinks is completely wrong.
dbcurrie at 12:20AM on 04/04/09
@Madeline - rice is considered "kitniyot" which means that some people (those who are "sephardic") will eat it over passover and others (those who are "ashkenazic") won't. It is a regional thing, I believe - that depending on where your ancestors hailed from, kitniyot was allowed because of scarcity of other food sources. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitniyot for some more info. So, if you are sephardic, then you could theoretically eat rice pasta over passover, though you would likely have to make it yourself because I doubt that they make it kosher for passover.
@wicked - the only thing we use the passover noodles for during passover is a noodle kugel - they are not really good enough to eat in a bowl with some sauce - its a texture/gumminess thing.
Also, my mom will make matzo lazagna sometimes. I hate it. Partially because the matzo just gets soggy and gross (in my opinion) and partially because it is really difficult (if even possible) to find kosher for passover ricotta cheese, so she uses cottage cheese, which has a different texture and flavor. I'm a big fan of matzo pizza though!
NYCEater at 9:29AM on 04/04/09
Thanks, everyone for your suggestions. I'm going to finish up my Passover recipes tonight - you've given me some GREAT information, sparking lots of ideas.
-Dawn
Wicked Good Dinner"
WickedGoodDinner at 11:12AM on 04/04/09
Quinoa is kosher for Passover, but I don't know whether quinoa flour would make good pasta.
juliec at 10:29AM on 04/05/09
Matzo lasagna is wonderful - much lighter than a standard lasagna. I think I will have to make some.
kitchenhacker at 1:32PM on 04/06/09
These threads from people trying to push the envelope of kosher-for-Passover creativity crack me up. I commend the efforts, and see how they might even be motivated by the challenge of it, but the efforts seem analogous to sculpting a Thanksgiving turkey from tofu. I enjoy the traditional ingredients and all their limitations, and look forward to the pizza that awaits the end of my Passover.
Lorenzo at 2:50PM on 04/06/09
You're not supposed to eat things that have the appearance of being leavened or that could have come into contact with such a product. Legumes, such as chickpeas or beans, are a no go for Ashkenazi Jews because they 'puff up' like leavened bread when they are cooked. The idea is that since the Jews could not wait for their bread to rise, they had to do with unleavened bread, and thus any other food that you need to cook in order to get it to puff up into how it is supposed to look, is not kosher for Passover. Many Jews completely clean out their homes and get rid of all products that are not kosher for Passover. If you are going to the trouble of doing that, then you will not be eating pasta. For many, it is symbolically 'cheating' to eat foods that are kosher for Passover, but do look like they could be leavened.
laurelie at 3:05PM on 04/06/09
In the early 70s a friend gave me a cookbook from a Jewish woman's group in Garden City, Long Island. Here are some of the dishes in the Passover category: MatzoBall, Matzo Dumplings, Matzo Apple Pudding, Liver and Potato Blintzes, Potato Kugel, Potato Knishes, Matzo Apple Kugel, Matzo Meal Latkes & Pancakes, Tzimmes without meat, Sponge Cake with Honey, Jelly Roll, Lemon Pie , Nut Torte, Eight Egg Sponge Cake, Almond Cookies, Almond Macaroons, Cream Puffs, Custard Filling, Brownies, Stuffed Veal Brisket.
Many of the recipes use "cake meal" and "matzo meal" for the deserts and "potato starch" for thickener. If you want the recipe for any of the above, let me know. Most are simple with few ingredients
I have used many of the recipes in the book but I haven't tried any of the above..
elaine nan at 5:18PM on 04/06/09
@laurelei - actually, that is not why Ashkenazi Jews do not eat legumes and other products, termed "kitniyot" (a full list of what that is is available here). The reason is that these products were often produced in the same fields are harvested and the same times as prohibited products - wheat, oat, spelt, barley and rye. Therefore the Ashkenazic rabbis declared they should not be eaten to prevent confusion or mistakes; the Sephardic rabbis did not.
@cybercita - it actually is not really strictly observant Jews who will not eat matzah mixed with any liquids, thought it is more strict - it is a practice among certain specific sects of Hasidic Jews, not necessarily ultra orthodox Jews.
cool2bars at 8:33PM on 04/06/09
Friday for dinner I made scacchi, an Italian Passover dish that is what some are referring to here as "matzo lasagna". My writeup has links to the recipe:
http://wine-by-benito.blogspot.com/2009/04/2006-galil-mountain-barbera.html
It's good, definitely something different.
Benitowine at 9:55PM on 04/06/09
is it only matzah/flour derived passover items that must be blessed by a rabbi to be considered "kosher for passover"?
i survive mostly on eggs, potatoes, veggies and fruit during passover. does all that stuff need to be blessed by a rabbi to be kosher for passover?
redhead at 8:45AM on 04/07/09
@cool2bars - thanks. That's just the reason I have always heard in my family growing up, that you shouldn't eat stuff that looks like it has been leavened or could have mixed in with leavened ingredients.
laurelie at 9:46AM on 04/07/09
@redhead - I'm going to work under the assumption that you're not joking.
Kosher, and kosher for passover never means blessed by a rabbi. It means that a figure known as a mashgiach, sometimes a Rabbi but not always, has been checking all food carefully and closely to make sure it follows the guidelines for Kosher or Kosher for Passover food.
For kosher food, it basically means that not meat or dairy were mixed, and that no non-kosher ingredients like pork or shellfish were used.
Kosher for passover, means that no ingredients have flour, from any of the five grains and that everything is very carefully checked to make sure none of the ingredients may have had flour in them. Matzah is the only product on passover that you can eat that can have flour in it - and that is very carefully watched to make sure it doesn't cook longer than 18 minutes, otherwise you can't use it.
Generally the rule is that fresh produce, including eggs, does not need a special hechsher, meaning kosher symbol, for passover, unless they are canned or preserved. Observant Jews will be careful to only eat eggs that they purchased before Passover, but that is an additional restriction.
Hope I answered that okay!
Amy
Baking and Mistaking
cool2bars at 10:22AM on 04/07/09
@Lorenzo, I liked your comment about pushing the envelope on what can be served. I think with things like this there are people who want to toe the line on the rules, but are willing to fudge on the spirit of the thing, and others are okay to fudge on the rules as long as they remain true to the intentions of the rules...
But I wouldn't compare it to carving a turkey out of tofu. It's really more like my Catholic friends who follow the "no meat on Friday" rule for lent by going out for lobster and shrimp and all-you-can-eat crab leg buffets. They're following the rules, technically, but pigging out at Red Lobster isn't exactly what was intended.
I also think part of this is that the younger generations are either getting back to the religious traditions after their parents played fast and loose with the rules at home, or there are people who are on their own and trying to follow the traditions but are a little unclear about what and why things are done a certain way, and they're looking for a more modern twist on the old ways of doing things. Whether that's right or wrong is a personal decision.
dbcurrie at 1:13PM on 04/07/09
Try Martha Stewart's Matzoh Lasagna. It works because it doesn't try to be "real" lasagna, which you do need real noodles for. It's a tasty casserole that somewhat resembles white lasagna:
http://www.marthastewart.com/recipe/matzo-lasagna?autonomy_kw=Matzo%20Lasagna
And I agree about the Passover noodles - they are horrible. If you observe Passover, it's just better to do without a few things for a few days.
MMinNYC at 2:51PM on 04/09/09
I have learned one thing about the Passover noodles: They must be soaked in a casserole to be edible. You can't serve them naked or semi-naked the way you do regular pasta. I have made kugel with the Passover noodles for years, I mix the stuff up the night before, it sits in the 'fridge overnight before baking for brunch (or Saturday Torah study). People are always unsure about it ("Peysadish lochen?") until I show them the wrapper from the package. In this manner, they are quite edible!
I think a tomato-sauce-based casserole would also work.
At our community Seder, I serve a vegetarian lasagna that uses matzoh, and I don't pre-wet them. I just make sure that the veggies are a little juicy when I layer them, and make sure to spread tomato sauce on one or both sides of the matzoh. It works just fine, the vegetarians are crazy about it, and I've actually had to give out the recipe (and who uses recipes?) multiple times. We finally put it into the handout booklet that people get at the Seder, with all kinds of new recipes for people to try, this year or next.
As for using matzoh flour to make noodles - nope. There is no gluten in the crumbs that would make the noodles stick together properly. Save the matzoh flour for things like oven-fried chicken and crumb toppings.
morgancain at 9:48AM on 04/13/09
Passover noodles are also not bad swimming in a bowl of chicken soup... but they do not work as "pasta" with sauces. Gummy and just icky.
The theory is that any wild yeast which might be on the flour will start to make it rise 18 minutes after the flour is mixed with water, thus becoming chametz, so the matzo must be rolled, shaped and fully cooked within 18 minutes of the time the water is added; matzo bakeries use ovens in the 800°F range, and cook the matzos in about 90 seconds! Since any yeast is killed in the baking process, if the matzo is then ground back into "flour" (known as "matzo cake meal"), it can be used for baking. The texture is never quite right, since the gluten was activated in the first baking.
Strictly orthodox Jews (and not all of them) do not eat matzo which has been made wet, except on the last day of the holiday. Wetted matzo (which includes anything involving matzo meal or cake meal) is called "gebrokts" from the Yiddish for "broken." The theory here is that if there was a pocket of unmixed flour in the matzo, when it gets wet, it will start to rise and become chametz.
I learned that kitniyot were forbidden to Ashkenazic Jews because they were used as a flour-substitute to make quasi-breads in the Middle Ages, so the rabbis of Eastern Europe banned them during Passover. This never happened in the Sephardic or Mizrahi communities, so those rabbis never had the question posed, and therefore descendants of those communities are still allowed to eat kitniyot on Passover.
DrGaellon at 1:32PM on 04/13/09
It is funny to see how far people will go to bend the rules of what is and what is not pesadicha (excuse the spelling). I find it even more humorous that Martha Stewart, who we can all safely say is not an MOT, would publish a Passover recipe of her own. But there are clearly many interpretations of what constitutes keeping passover, depending upon whether those doing so are orthodox, conservative or reformed. I know certain members of my community who are reform jews, who don't keep a kosher home but do observe passover, keeping all leavened bread products out of their homes during the 8 days of passover. And THOSE people think they are keeping passover. However, they may be having that matzo with a chef salad that contains ham and cheese..............
Delicious B at 1:39PM on 04/13/09