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I've been thinking about asking for some advice! A few years ago I tried making pizza at home without any special equipment - using a big jelly roll pan to make square shaped, grandma type pie. The result was just OK, certainly not any better than the delivered pies from this great neighborhood joint in Queens we'd be ordering from for over 20 years. A few months ago, our favorite pizza place shut down, and the other delivery options are not acceptable. So I was very intrigued by the pizza recipe in the Times today:

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/19/magazine/19food-t-000.html?_r=1&ref=dining

Before I run out and get a peel and pan, the max temperature on my oven dial is 400 degrees and the recipe specifies 450, though my oven thermometer comes up a few degrees shy of that (I'm not sure how accurate it is, though). My last pizza effort yielded a rather flabby crust that wasn't quite browned enough on the bottom, with no bubbles anywhere. Is this hot enough to make a great pizza? I'm more than willing to buy the gear if there's a good chance of a good pie.

Thanks so much!

I use a dough recipe from Peter Reinhart's American Pie, and the first time I made pizza from it, it was absolutely fantastic! But on further pizza making sessions, my dough has always been too tight and elastic. Also the sauce I use from that book is a little too chunky/watery so my toppings slide off :P Any suggestions?

I've heard that Reinhart's book is magic. I aspire to collect the coinage to buy it--in the meantime I use this one, which claims to be adapted, or perhaps simplified. http://www.101cookbooks.com/archives/001199.html

Is the dough hard to stretch? Elastic in the sense that you stretch it out and it goes back to the original shape?

Make sure the dough is rising for the specific time and also that it isn't cold when you're stretching it out. Speaking of which, are you using a rolling pin or doing it by hand? I find most people have trouble with a rolling pin. It really doesn't work.

Basically, use warm, well risen dough. And stretch by hand.

As for the sauce, it depends on what you're looking for. I prefer an uncooked sauce- a can of crushed tomatoes, a bit of basil, and some garlic is my sauce for 98% of my pizzas. If you like something spice heavy you can use one can crushed, a can of tomato paste, and a small can of sauce for a better tomato base.

I stretch it by hand, I don't quite remember if I let it get to room temperature. It goes back to near its original shape pretty quickly, and persists the ungodly springiness through rest periods. The crust bakes up very thick and chewy (and I like bready crusts) I wonder if maybe I just don't use enough water in the dough?

I hate dealing with making home made pizza dough, actually I ruin it, so I usually use pita bread to put the toppings on. I like real thin, crisp crust pizza dough, know any recipes?

what is the best type of pizza pan for the oven the marble one?

do you have a great tasting, flavorful pizza sauce?

Where can you get a small, inexpensive pizza oven that will not take up much room?

@pjracz10: there are 2 really great thin and crispy (almost cracker) recipes on pizzamaking.com just click recipes

for that style of pizza the pans with holes work the best. just another added part of making it crispy. you should be able to pick one up at target or any kitchen store .

I agree for a thin pizza like that, a flavorful sauce is the best. i'm on my phone right now but i'll send you the one I use when I get home. tomato paste is key.

there are a number of small pizza ovens to be had for 200 or so on ebay. they all heat to about 500 degrees, not usually more.

I would shift focus and just add a bit more water. Dont worry too much about the window pane test, either. with the higher hydration doughs it doesnt always work out. when I hand knead I mix everything together, knead as a whole for 5 or so minutes, take a 10 minute break, then knead the individual balls for another 5-7 minutes.

less is more.

ps: id love to see pics of your next batch!

I have a very pressing question for you! There are some restaurants around me that have very cripsy, almost cracker-like pizza crusts, that apparently use honey instead of oil. Despite numerous efforts, however, I always end up with crap and usually just chuck the lot away and use my standard Napolitnao crust, which is nice...but I wanted to really try that other one. Do you know what I am doing wrong? I dont' actually have a recipe, so I have been trying to jigger the ones that I have at home already. Perhaps you have one that you like?

It's not the ingredients for that style as much as it is the process. It's a lower hydration dough that is kneaded for only 3 or 4 minutes. Check out the recipe for the "thin and crispy cracker pizza" at pizzamaking.com. (sorry for outlinking again, adam)

That recipe is EXACTLY what you want. Many people strive for that typwe of pizza but there isn't a lot of info out there about it.

Lmk if something wasn't clear, as I typed this on my phone from work.

http://pizzamaking.com/pizzainnstyle.php

Give this one a try for that thin and crispy recipe. This method should work out well for you. I've used it with great results for that "midwestern" kind of pie.

Oh, for Pete's sake. The dough for pizza can be made in 20 minutes right before you cook it. All this worrying and hand-wringing about making the dough just perfect is just wasting time when you could be eating.

It's flour, water and yeast. I don't even use salt. Salt the tomato sauce. Use a dough hook on your KitchenAid until the dough is just sticky. Then take it out and work it by hand for 5 minutes. You'll KNOW when it's right - it FEELS right. Press it out onto a pizza pan, try to get it as evenly spread out as possible. Let it rise for 10 minutes, put your toppings on and get ready to eat.

That's what is important. Just get started. Make some pizzas. The first 10 may not be pizzeria quality, but the next 10 will be and they be half the cost or less. If you worry too much about the perfect water or the perfect crust or brick ovens, you'll never be satisfied. And if it takes 24 hours to make the dough, you'll never make enough pizzas to get good at it.

I've now made well over 2000 pizzas over the past 25 years and eaten most of them myself. I'm more than satisfied with the results.

Thank you for this post. I will try the recipes on the links given. I have NEVER had a good homemade pizza-- the dough always tastes like baked wallpaper paste. I can't figure out if it's a lack of salt or something else. I've tried dozens of recipes over the years and it doesn't matter how awesome and pricey the toppings--you can't have great pizza with a tasteless crust.

What is your opinion of pizza made on an outdoor grill? Jeffrey Steingarten once wrote an article describing his efforts to approximate the high temps found in commercial pizza ovens. He said he was able to get some of the highest temps using a grill. Or do you think a home-use oven does an adequate job? Sorry for the silly questions but I've experienced a lot of pizza failures and nothing has worked--I figure it must be my technique rather than the ingredients.

*oops--just read the previous post suggesting increasing the rise time. I'll give it a try! Another further advice would be appreciated--

I have been successfully making what I consider to be really lovely pizzas using a variation/combination of a few recipes but basically Jeff Varasano's preparation combined with the 101 cookbooks/American Pie one.

These are usually really, really nice, but I long for the flavour of real Naples pizza dough and sauce. My sauce is really nice - but a bit too American/Westernised; read overly seasoned and a bit too sweet - I did try the simple sauce from American Pie but like a previous poster didn't find that satisfactory at all. Any tips in these directions would be great.

However my two main questions should be quite simple to answer:

1. I love the way fresh basil almost melts on some pizzas (pretty much everywhere in Naples does this on a Margherita) but I can't get the same effect. If I place it on in the oven it tends to burn, if I place it on just after I remove the pizza from the oven during the couple of minutes before serving it doesn't get the same effect. Is it simply that as my oven isn't up to fired oven temperatures that the pizza isn't hot enough to achieve this effect?

2. One of my local takeaways (now closed sadly) used to apply a wash to the crust after they removed it from the oven and that seemed to make a positive difference to the taste. Any ideas what that wash would be? I think it was more than just egg-whites.

@carhoff: more salt is always a good idea. i use 3% in most of my recipes which defonetly helps. The longer rise time is benefical and maybe even crucial for home pizza making. sure, its a pain getting it ready a few dyas before, but when its pizza time thats one less thing you need to worry about. additionally, dont worry about the "let rise for 24 hours" - if you make dough it will be useable in 12, good at 24, and even better at 36 hours. the more time in the fridge the more the yeast does fun things to develop that flavor. just give it enough time to come to room temp.

as for the grill, basically it depends on if you like the smoky taste of grilled pies. adams covered it before on slice. there is nothing better sometimes on a summer day.

@vinoportland: indeed! when my girlfriends family has pizza parties for the kids they buy a bunch of small dough balls from their local pizza place. its a good option.

@defusion: you may want to try doing your finishing under the broiler. bake without the basil, throw it on with some olive oil towards the end, and finish under the broiler. the high heat and super quick cook time brings more deliciousness (oils) out of the cheese in a neop. oven and thats what helps acheive that "melt" effect. see if that works for you.

as far as the wash, try melted margarine with a little bit of garlic and oregano. a number of local places use that in lieu of an eggwash. its good for coloring and can add an additional boost to a fairly normal crust. its a little secret they didnt want you to see... :)

@pauliegee: thank you sir. it means a lot coming from a fellow pizza maniac.

Any recommendation on what to use to keep the dough from sticking to everything, especially the peel? Flour, cornmeal, ball bearings, axel grease, prayer? Once it's actually on the stone in the oven, it's fine. It's just the getting it there that I'm having problems with.

(Btw, I use the refrigerated dough from the supermarket, haven't gotten around to making my own yet.)

I think people try too hard with pizza. Back in the day my family owned a pizzeria and so I grew up eating homemade...my grandpa used the AP flour he had in the house, yeast, oil, salt water. Threw it all together, kneaded by hand, let rise in the fridge overnight. Take it out and weigh out the pies a couple hours before you want to make it. Honestly, we rolled it with a pin, not just hand-stretched. Also was delicious and crispy. My family thinks it a failure if you can hold up a slice and it won't stand straight out, in other words, never soggy and overly laden with sauce and cheese. Oh, and always slices of mozzarella, perfectly spaced, not shredded. I think it helps control the amount of cheese and avoid oily pools of it.

Good posts above. Thanks!

BTW, thanks for the help, folks!

@walttrombone As Prairie emphasized, in addirtion to anything else you do get a wooden peel. Or a fancy metal one with slots in it to allow the excess flour to be left behind.

Ciao,

Paulie Gee

At my old apartment, I broke the self cleaning lock on my oven and waited until the stone got up to 600 degrees. At my house now, I don't have that option. I put the stone about 6 inches from the broiler and broil it up to 600 degrees. I check the temperature with an infrared thermometer. I use the hot stone and the broiler to cook the pie. The broiler will finish the top first so you turn it off once the top looks done. Then, just let the stone finish the pie off on the bottom. The top won't overcook because the ambient temperature in the oven is usually pretty low since I heat up the stone with the broiler exclusively.

As far as preventing your basil from burning. Just take the leaves and soak them in the tomato sauce for about 10 minutes. It sweetens up the sauce and it hydrates them enough to prevent them from burning.

Hillary- Deep Dish is a whole different beast, but good results are pretty easy to achieve as the focus isn't much on the dough.

I use a 14"X16"X5/8" kiln shelf as a pizza stone. I got mine free as it was ruined by a huge glaze drip for its original purpose, but new cost is about 35 bucks from a ceramic supplier. I also use 3 kiln stilts to position the shelf 1/2 inch above the bottom element of my oven. Place stilts at the back corners and front center of the shelf. The reason for 3 stilts is so the shelf won't wobble. I think Williams Sunoma pizza stone is actually a kiln shelf.

Thanks for the tips. Tried the soaking in the sauce before putting it on the pizza tonight, which was nice and better than anything I tried before. But will try and find some Soy bean oil somewhere and try that out.

Also tried the margarine, Oregano & Garlic wash (added a little Marjoram too, just because) and it does seem pretty close to what the pizzeria used to use. Think I'll leave it for just my Marinaras rather than my other pizzas in future though - think it will be great on those.

Finally, maybe SOMEONE can help me! I am originally from IL and have been a NY'r for ten years now -- there is an INCREDABLE difference in pizza -- unless you've had both, you won't know...
Back in IL, the pizza's were thin, the crust was awesome, just awesome! It had a beer taste sometimes, and I have wracked my brain trying to figure it out. There are a couple places here in NY where I really enjoy the pizza, and it seems that most people refer to chicago pizza as the pan pizzas or stuffed which I am NOT talking about here....do you know how to make the crust used in IL so I can re-create it here? My husband only had pizza once in IL and he didn't like it because he's a born and raised Bronx boy--you know, if it's not sicilian, it's thin with some sauce and even the cheese is different! The pizza I grew up with was thin crust, LOTS of delicious mozzarella (which is my second question...what's the difference in the cheeses? there is a DEFINITE difference!)...anyway, the IL pizza was thin, with a beer-y taste, nice sauce and thick delicious gooey cheese and the NY pizza is thin, some sauce and a different kind of moz..OH and the slices to squares thing...hubs STILL makes fun over that one! LOL! seriously, I've tried to write to some restaraunts out there with no luck and want to make homemade IL pizza at home here in NY and have had zero luck in finding any recipes. If you can help or will help, please email me at mariannakeough at hotmail.com .. I'd greatly appreciate your help

My computer freaked out the first time I wrote this so I’m hoping I get to post this comment:
With that said my question is about 00 flour. I’ve heard that it is the best flour to use, but to be honest I usually feed my sourdough starter (16 years old) with the stuff, it makes it happy and it seems to do better. I’m thinking because it’s easier for the starter to feed because it’s so finely ground. But it is rather expensive the cheapest I can find it is $1.99 per kilo, so I’m not so keen on trying something that in the end would not really change the pizza. BTW I have worked hard to prefect my pizza’s and I love my pizza both my NY and my Chicago style.
So do you think it’s worth a try?