Help with bread
Hi there - I am a relative newbie to this website/blog, and I love it dearly! I can hardly wait until lunch to read the things that everyone is saying. You guys are wonderful. Having said that, I need your help. I am desperate to make a fabulous loaf of bread. I have searched this blog for advice (I'm actually eating a turkey sandwich right now on beer bread from a recipe I found in the archives, and have intentions of making Seriously Multi Grain bread this weekend!), but I don't quite see what I need; hence the new thread.
I have tried so many ways, done much reasearch, and am guessing my mistake(s) comes down to improperly kneading my dough. Does anyone have any specific advice/insight/hints for this problem that would translate well to written word? I need help with knowing how to move my hands, how it should feel, and exactly when I've reached that magic level of elasticity.
I am falling in love with bread-making, and I want to my end result to show that love! Thanks in advance with any advice you can offer.
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18 Comments:
I haven't made anything from this bread blog but the recipes and how to's seem terrificic - http://www.thekneadforbread.com/
nithya at hungrydesi at 1:54PM on 02/10/09
The way you move your hands isn't really important - it's just moving the dough around, stretching it as you push it away from you, and so on, to get the gluten molecules working. That's why it can be made in a mixer or bread machine. There isn't a magic move that makes it perfect. I have carpal tunnel syndrome, and have done kneading with just one hand, pushing it on my counter and folding it over. You can't over-knead it, and frankly (this is probably heresy to some), under-kneading isn't the end of the world.
What problems are you having that makes you think you aren't kneading it properly? Not all flours behave the same - if you're working with rye, for instance, it's always really, really sticky.
lemons at 2:30PM on 02/10/09
As has been said, there's no magic move to kneading, and I do most of mine in my kitchenaid mixer for a variety of reasons. I've seen a lot of methods for kneading, and some are quite gentle and rhythmic and other people basically slam the dough on the countertop. Whatever works for you is fine. But if you hand-knead, there's a tendency to add too much flour to the countertop and thus all that extra flour gets incorporated into the dough. If you keep the dough moving, it tends to stick a lot less.
When it's properly kneaded, it will be smooth and shiny. You won't have lumps and bumps and it will be very elastic. You should be able to take a tiny piece of dough and stretch it so thin that you can see through it.
As lemons said, underkneading isn't the end of the world. There's a no-knead dough receipe that people are in love with. The trick there is that the long rest activated the gluten the same way that kneading does. So (secret tip coming) if you aren't getting the elasticity and the smooth-and-shiny look that you should be getting, and if you're tired of kneading, just plop the dough into a bowl, cover it with plastic and set it aside, and go back to kneading it in an hour or so. It will probably have done a bit of rising in the meantime, but you can just go knead it some more and then let it rise again.
dbcurrie at 2:46PM on 02/10/09
Thank you for the advice I am already getting. My loaves are usually very sticky, almost uncomfortably so, when I begin needing. I add flour as needed, but maybe I'm adding too much? Also what I'm finding is that even after "kneading" (I use the term loosely as I truly feel I am doing something wrong) even longer than the prescribed period of time, I still see dimply, dull skin on my loaf. I have tried using my stand mixer to knead, but honestly, I love the idea of actually getting my hands into it. Also, I worry about overkneading with a machine. I have done the "stretch check," and I second guess myself with the results. Should it easily pull into place, or should I have to work it to get it to its thinnest point? Is this not even my biggest problem, since what I'm pulling off of is certain not "smooth and elastic?" My end result is usually dense, FAR more dense that I would prefer, and occasionally presents with a chewy texture near the bottom of the loaf. I fear that somehow I'm cosmically doomed to never turn out a truly satisfying loaf of bread.
I have a coworker who actually uses the phrase, "But let me tell you why that won't work," and then launches into an essay about why my suggestion for a particular problem isn't appropriate. I fear that's how I sound. Thank you for overlooking it, if that's the case!
mollykate678 at 3:08PM on 02/10/09
What kind of flour are you using? Rye, as I say, just won't have that shineyness. If you're using a lot of coarse grains it will always be bumpy. Rye is always, always, always sticky, which is why some authorities suggest beginners avoid it. My guess is that you're putting too much flour in because of the stickiness. There really isn't such a thing as overkneading by hand, really, but you might toss the dough in the machine before you start adding more flour, after you've done some by hand. Or do half by hand and half by machine and compare the two loaves
I can't recall my doughs being very shiny, frankly, until I oil them. there's at most a gloss after I make it up into a loaf. I am not sure what you mean by the stretch check, but dough, as the gluten develops will become quite elastic. I don't know about pulling something into place, as you said. Until you let it rest, the gluten will want to not stretch out easily - making pizza crust, for instance, it'll want to stay in a fat round and you have to let it relax before you stretch it out more.
That density sure sounds like you're adding too much flour (or not enough liquid), though.
lemons at 3:43PM on 02/10/09
Breadmaking, like most baking projects,involve formulas rather than recipes. Measuring ingredients for your baking formulas is extremely important. Everyone scoops flour a little differently, which can mean that your formula is not accurate, and your results may not be what you hope for. The best investment you can make as a breadbaker is a good scale for weighting out your baking ingredients. Most people have a tendency to over measure their flour,and thus your dough would be dry and hard to knead. It is always better to have a Too wet dough to which you can add flour, rather than to have a Too dry dough. It is very hard to incorperate more wet ingredients into an already firm dough. I am currently reading Peter Reinhart's book "The Bread Baker's Apprentice", which I would highly recommend to anyone interested in the subject. Another recommendation is "www.breadtopia.com" a very good website on breadbaking, which has some very good videos on no-knead breads and on starting a sourdough culture. Good luck on your baking. I made a great batch of bagels last week, and this weeks project is English muffins.
dmcavanagh at 4:18PM on 02/10/09
Hi Molly,
First of all... I think the most important thing is that the more you make bread, the more naturally it will come. At some point, you'll just "feel" when the dough is ready.
But there are things you can do.
1. Time - Most recipes will tell you to knead for a certain length of time. As long as you are "working" the dough for around that time, you'll probably be ok.
2. Temp - As you work the bread, the temp will rise. I've been working with Peter Reinhart's Bread Baker's Apprentice, and the final dough temp is usually around 77-81 F for his breads. There's nothing wrong with getting out the ol' thermometer.
3. Windowpane - If you think you might be good to go, tear off a little ball of dough. Smooth it out between your palms. Then pull on the dough and hold it up to a light. If you can start to see some light coming through without the dough tearing, you're definitely set. Here's a pic:
http://i64.photobucket.com/albums/h166/LizH_99/Bread%202007/1129WPc.jpg
Who needs fancy equipment? :)
lawofmurphy at 4:21PM on 02/10/09
I'm using King Arthur bread flour. Just regular old stuff, nothing fancy. Sorry for my lack of clarity about the "stretch" business; I was referring to the point where I'm checking to see if my dough has been kneaded enough and pull off a bit, flatten it out, and see how thinly I can stretch it before it breaks. What I mean by second guessing myself is that yes, I can get it pretty thin. But then I start wondering if ithe thin section I create is too small, and then that it's generally just too gummy to be passable. Ugh. Maybe I'm impossible to please and I just need to relax a bit?
@dmcavanagh - Reinhart's book is on my Amazon wishlist. Actually, I have 3 of his on there. Am hoping to receive one soon!! And I'm very jealous of the English muffins. I eat one nearly ever morning, and constantly lament the fact that I didn't make it myself!!!
mollykate678 at 4:25PM on 02/10/09
@mollykate678-by his own admission, Reinhart has improved some of his breads since some of his earlier books, so if your making a wish list, be sure to include his most recent works, which include "The Bread Baker's Apprentice" and "Peter Reinhart's Whole Grain Breads".
dmcavanagh at 4:35PM on 02/10/09
It's nearly impossible to overknead with a Kitchenaid, but it is possible with a food processor or with commercial equipment. Depending on the flour and other ingredients I'm using, it may take 20 minutes with the kitchenaid to get the result I'm after. No way I could knead the equivalent by hand.
If you've got dull, dimply dough, it's not kneaded to the point where bread books would want it kneaded. And you're probably adding too much flour based on your other descriptions.
Try doing the kneading all the way in the kitchenaid, and watch it as it works. Stop it now and then and feel the dough. It will go through stages where it looks all wrong, but avoid the impulse to add flour or water. Just let it go. Eventually, you'll get to a point where it's silky, smooth and shiny. The dough will be tacky, but not sticky. Then you can take it out and do some final kneading. Next time, you can stop earlier and do more hand kneading. Or knead all the way.
My basic white bread goes like this:
Into the bowl of the mixer goes:
1 cup warm water
1 package (or equivalent) of yeast
1 tablespoon sugar.
Wait until the yeast gets all foamy and happy, then add 1 cup of bread flour and whisk it in. Let it sit for 15 minutes to an hour.
Put the bowl on the mixer and add another 1 1/2 cups of bread flour (you're at 2 1/2 total) plus 1 teaspoon of salt.
If the dough seems really wet, you can add up to another 1/2 cup of flour. If you're going to be hand-kneading, don't add it, because you'll probably add that much while you're kneading. If you aren't going to do any hand kneading at all, add maybe another 1/4 cup, if you need it.
After you've kneaded a lot of dough, you'll know what to look for based on the type of bread you want to end up with, but the extra 1/4 cup should be fine to add. There's a wide range of flour/water ratios for dough, and you can make a really slack (wet) dough or a drier one, and still have a good loaf of bread.
Let the mixer do its thing until the dough is shiny and stretchy. You'll see when it changes.
Add 1 tablespoon olive oil, and start up the mixer slowly, then build speed as the olive oil incorporates. It will get all shiny again very quickly.
Now you can take it out and hand-knead. Stick it back in the bowl when you're done, let it double in size one time, then take it out, shape it, and let it rise again until doubled. Then bake it.
Once you've done this in the Kitchenaid a few times, you'll get an idea of what the dough looks and feels like at various stages and you'll know what to expect when you're hand-kneading all the way.
dbcurrie at 4:38PM on 02/10/09
@dmcavanagh, do you think that adding extra water is more difficult from your own experience, or is this just one of those truisms that everyone states? Frankly, I've never had trouble adding water, as long as I add it slowly, the same way I would add flour. I'm just wondering what the difficulty is that everyone talks about, and/or whether they're just repeating what others have told them.
dbcurrie at 5:03PM on 02/10/09
@dbcurrie- I find that when you have a dough that needs more water, when you add the water, the dough has a tendency to just spin around in the bowl of the KitchenAid, and isn't really being kneaded. It's much easier to get a wet dough to accept flour rather than a dry dough to accept water.
dmcavanagh at 5:12PM on 02/10/09
@dmc, if it's really dry, it's more of a problem, but what I do is just sprintz it with a water bottle so it incorporates slowly. It doesn't take long before it becomes more willing to take on more water. As soon as it's sticky, you can add it a little quicker. But dumping a quarter-cup of water into a painfully dry dough isn't a pretty sight, I'll agree.
Adding water to an already wet dough is easier than adding it to an overly dry dough, though.
I was just wondering what your experience was, though, because I've heard people say, "you can't add water to a dry dough..." as though it's completely impossible.
dbcurrie at 6:46PM on 02/10/09
I know this is not really that helpful, but I think this is something that just comes with practice. You develop a sense of what looks and feels right. We have a barely-used breadmaker at home. Although its a pain to take out and put on the counter, it does make some good bread.
When you make bread by hand, there are a million factors. Timing is not a dependable parameter. Heat, humidity, age of flour, temperature of yeast and all sorts of other things will affect your dough. Mainly, the rise and the kneading.
My best advice is to start with the simplest recipe you can find. With fewer rises and less kneading time. and.. just practice... with like.. half-batches or something. I spent my last semester of college baking instead of buying bread. It was wonderful. Half of my loaves weren't very good. But it was fun!
The worst that can happen is that a loaf will flop and you'll lose out on the 50cent cost of the ingredients.
engmcmuffin at 7:44PM on 02/10/09
dbcurrie:
I flour the board heavily (by the time it's too thick to stir, I still have a couple cups of flour to incorporate), turn the dough out, flour the top and start folding it on itself and pressing down, over and over and over. I keep just enough flour between my hands and the dough to keep from having a quicksand experience. After ten minutes or so, you need little to no flour.
When I was new to breadmaking, my problem was that I couldn't get the dough to rise. At all. Even though the yeast was brand-new-fresh. So I went over to my mom's house – she was a good cook & baker – and had her direct me. Turns out I thought "warm water" was coffee-drinking temperature (up to 140°F), when it's actually baby-bath temperature (70°-90°F).
gentlyferal at 1:13AM on 02/11/09
@gentlyferal -- yeast murderer!
:-)
dbcurrie at 2:13AM on 02/11/09
The key to all breadbaking is gluten. Bread flour is a must for good bread. It has the highest protein values. Also, it has the highest levels of the functional proteins glutenin and Gliaden, the key to rise and structure. As you add other flours, Rye, oat, Corn or barley, they have low levels of glutenin and gliaden making it essential to use high quality bread flour instead of all purpose as your flour source, to develop a light, airy non dense texture. Kneading it correctly using a weak flour system (All purpose or pastry) will always result in less than perfect textural results (denser bread with lower rise) especially with whole grain and specialty flour breads.
the best way to judge the level of kneading is the stretch test others have outlined above. But in some whole grain doughs and rye doughs, the dough doesn't allow this as the non wheat grains shorten the dough too much to allow it to stretch.
If you over knead the dough, the surface of your loaves will appear to have strings of dough, a like frayed spot in the leg of blue jeans running along the top of the dough. Very fine cracks, making it look like the bread was over stretched, you can sometimes see this on your dough balls after rounding..
Meat guy at 9:27AM on 02/11/09
Thank you all so much for your help and suggestions. I know that some of you probably have been thinking, "Really? Another question about bread making?" And you went ahead and answered. I really appreciate that, and know that you all are taking time to be specific with your help. I'm looking forward to trying again, loaded up with your advice! If anybody else has anything to add, I'm all ears!!!
mollykate678 at 11:18AM on 02/11/09