Please - tone down the nasty comments about veg diets!
I get it, other people's dietary choices annoy or threaten you. Perhaps you were once inconvenienced by a thoughtless vegetarian houseguest, or you're a former vegan whose health suffered as a result. Maybe you work in marketing for the beef industry and you fear the rise of vegetarianism will cause you to lose your job.
Regardless, there is no good reason to be disrespectful to others for dietary choices that are based on health, moral, philosophical, or spiritual concerns. That includes e.g. vegetarianism or veganism, kosher or halal, or gluten- or lactose-free diets.
If someone's attacking you for eating something that person doesn't eat, then sure, respond in defense of your choice (and a cursory look at Serious Eats comments will show that's a rare occurrence). But pre-emptive strikes about how vegetarianism is simply "trendy" or vegans don't eat "real food" are just offensive, and only serve as hindrances to the sense of community Serious Eats strives to create.
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44 Comments:
It's a fine line between being passionate about what you eat and being disrepectful of other people's choices. Sometimes the disrespect is unintentional and sometimes it's mis-perceived.
On the other hand, some people are just jerks, no matter what they eat or don't eat. Chastising them just lets them know that they've found your hot-button topic.
But to be honest, I think that for the most part, vegetarians on this site are less abused than those who profess a love for Miracle Whip or who put ketchup on a hot dog. And let's not even get into brands of peanut butter. Could be all-out war.
dbcurrie at 1:11PM on 11/11/08
@db - I put ketchup on my hot dog last night - WHO WANTS A PIECE OF ME?
Southern_bella at 1:16PM on 11/11/08
I put ketchup on tofu dogs!
producestories at 1:27PM on 11/11/08
Hmmmm....I wonder how Miracle Whip and Skippy would be? I could call it Miracle Skip!
Nah, never mind.
dbcurrie at 1:43PM on 11/11/08
@producestories: You have a good point here. I hope you're not referring to anything the Serious Eats crew has written in the blog posts on this site. If so, I'm sorry about that and will mention to everyone not to take undue swipes like that. If it's the community at large you're talking about, thanks, too, for the reminder here. I think it *is* a rare occurrence but that it does happen. And people should be reminded that we try to foster a "passionate, discerning, and inclusive" atmosphere here. Even for people who, ahem put ketchup on dogs. Have ye not heard of mustard!? ;)
Adam Kuban at 1:47PM on 11/11/08
@Adam - I use mustard too! :P
Southern_bella at 2:07PM on 11/11/08
Hot dogs are just an excuse to eat ketchup!
kjgibson at 2:30PM on 11/11/08
self righteous patronizing preachy behavior begets self righteous preachy responses. this goes both ways and is true in all realms. we'd all be better off if we didnt try to tell other people how to live their lives as much as is all too often the case.
and, i like either mustard and ketchup or ketchup and sauerkraut on my dogs. QQ, "purist" b*tches.
simon at 2:36PM on 11/11/08
I like ketchup on hot dogs sometimes, and mustard NEVER! (No, seriously. adding mustard seed or powdered mustard to something is ok, but no mustardy condiment!)
nightowl at 2:48PM on 11/11/08
I like hot mustard and sauerkraut on my seitan brats, personally.
KarynMC at 2:49PM on 11/11/08
Anybody should be able to eat what they want. Period. That being said, after you have told me about your dietary choices do not tell me how you are a better person because of it. Do not whine if restaurants don't have what you want. Pick up a phone or look on the internet to see if your dietary choice is well represented before going there. Lastly, try this--Live and let live --preaching only p****s people off!!
finsbigfan at 2:52PM on 11/11/08
@finsbigfan - Could we not complain about vegetarians in the "stop complaining about vegetarians" thread? ;-)
KarynMC at 2:55PM on 11/11/08
Oh, and Adam, on a more serious note, I have noticed some condescending language, most of which, I think, is meant to be light-hearted (like the comment about how it's easier to trust that tofu tastes okay if the compliment comes from omnivore), so I don't take it personally.
That said, I would love to see more content that treats vegetarians (even, gasp!, vegans) as serious eaters that can appreciate truffles and other yummy and decadent, if plant-based, foods. I think both vegetarians and omnivores appreciate good food!
KarynMC at 3:07PM on 11/11/08
I was bashes by a now ex friend for dating a hunter I was not the hunter I was the eater still he ate all the animals he hunted oh by the way she said this as she was putting money in her leather wallet~
rabbitriddle at 3:07PM on 11/11/08
@producestories - thank you! i was just thinking about that earlier today :)
@simon - as a vegetarian, the only time i ever get into the reasons why are when someone else starts attacking me for it. i've happily attended meals at peter lugar's steakhouse, dallas bbq, and other places where i've had to eat sides and not made a fuss about it, because it's about the company. and i can take a joke about what i eat. so i guess my question to you is, what about that is self-righteous, patronizing, preachy behavior that would warrant a nasty comment? i don't understand why vegetarians are universally tarred as preachy - i've met plenty and i can say that they generally are just people - some are nice, some aren't, but it's the same with the general population.
billyburgwife at 3:08PM on 11/11/08
@KarynMC I NEVER said vegetarians. I said DIETARY CHOICE. I am not complaining about the lifestyle of any dietary choice (vegetarian and all the types of vegetarian, raw food diet, organic only in veggies and meat, diets for religious beliefs) AGAIN I will say eat whatever makes you feel good and I will do the same. Now if that's complaining to you so be it.
finsbigfan at 3:37PM on 11/11/08
finsbigfan ... fairly new here, eh? Ok, chill out a bit, really. Karyn's been here a good long time, and I know you're taking things the wrong way. Really, she's a good girl and does not deserve a lecture, especially from someone who doesn't know how nice she really is.
LunaPierCook at 3:47PM on 11/11/08
@Billyburgwife, I think it's like everything else -- it's the exceptions that make the news, and it's the squeaky wheel that gets noticed. If you've got a dozen people sitting around a table, and they all have different dietary preferences or needs, and they're all discussing something noncontroversial like politics, no one is going to take notice of what anyone else is eating. But the first one who pipes up about how their food is better than anyone else's, because the other food is icky, tasteless, cruel, unusual, unhealthy, unsanitary, salty, evil, carb-laden or any other possible complaint, then that person is going to get noticed. And remembered.
I'll bet that the people who complain about vegetarians have had personal run-ins with one (or maybe more) vegetarians who were militant about what they ate. They may also have met hundreds more who simply ate what they ate without making any fuss, but they don't remember those, because there's nothing to remember.
dbcurrie at 3:48PM on 11/11/08
@finsbigfan - My apologies, it's just that you lobbied some complaints that I always see directed at vegetarians, so I assumed that's what you meant, though now I suppose some people eating kosher or all-organic or all-local or whatever could also be accused of being "preachy."
Haha, I think everyone should just come to DC and get some huge Ethiopian platters (veg and nonveg) and eat what we will over conversation and drinks!
KarynMC at 3:52PM on 11/11/08
aw, thanks LunaPierCook! I am blushing, you are so sweet!
KarynMC at 3:53PM on 11/11/08
@LunaPierCook I am not new here and I'm nice too
@KarynMC thank you for understanding. We have an Ethiopian restaurant in the Tampa Bay area that I have eaten at and very much enjoyed! The flavors and the choices are great and I recommend it.
finsbigfan at 4:09PM on 11/11/08
I always find a juicy steak or hamburger does wonders for a case of the crankies.
DaveFaris at 5:51PM on 11/11/08
I always wonder about the up-in-arms omnivores....
I'm vegetarian and easily order off most menus without fuss. It helps that I'll eat anything and everything except for meat-birds-fish, and also carry snacks in my purse. I have been verbally attacked a few times by omnivores who seem threatened by my matter-of-fact veggy ways. It seems to me akin to heterosexuals who attack homosexuals instead of minding their own business... Are they homophobic because they are themselves gay and have self loathing? Are the attack omnivores so agressive about my food choices because they feel guilty/bad about their own? Something to consider...
PeanutButter at 6:02PM on 11/11/08
As a vegetarian (and blogger), I personally don't take offense, though I can understand others do. I read so many food books and watch so many food shows that involve meat, because I can learn from them. It is just too limiting to only expose myself to vegetarian information. So I guess I'm inured to the gratuitous vegetarian bashing.
MichaelNatkin at 6:29PM on 11/11/08
billyburg, you clearly didn't understand my post. my apologies for not being more eloquent. i'm not saying that all veggies are self righteous. and I wonder why you seem to think that i was saying that you specifically are...
simon at 7:11PM on 11/11/08
Well, I just ate a lovely strip steak and enjoyed it very much. Tomorrow, however, I have big plans for israeli salad, hummus, baba, maybe a little falafel and as much hot sauce as I can consume from my favorite vegetarian joint.
I get what the OP is saying...yes, there are some veggie posts on here that people just get shitty with them about because they elect not to eat things with a face. Generally, if it doesnt relate to me, I dont post on it. I have a myspace filled with hate filled diatribe about all of the other woes in my world that I blog on religiously, so I save the bitching and moaning for that forum. (Southern_Bella gets a good read from me!)
Basically, if you aren't specifically associated with the freakin' post, keep yer yap shut. If you can't say anything nice....get a myspace blog!
ChelleyD01 at 7:25PM on 11/11/08
@sooooooo PeanutButter when you can't think of a good retort you play the gay card? Nicely done. No one is attacking your food choices. But I guess you will read what you want and ignore the rest to get your way in life. Indeed.
finsbigfan at 7:27PM on 11/11/08
Thank you, producestories, for something I've felt for a long time on this board. I like the people so much, but I am baffled how comments about 'self-righteous vegetarians' get bandied about. Of course, every ideological movement has people who are self-righteous within it, but I'm not under any illusion that I'm going to convert people on an Internet board. However, every time a vegetarian thread comes up, there are loads of nasty jokes about how we all are salivating for steak and bacon. Do you honestly think that we are all so lacking in protein that we will faint on the ground, fanning our faces with a lettuce leaf in horror because we hear people making the same tired jokes about eating animals we've heard for years?
BTW, some people are extremely respectful and omnivorous on the board, and I've learned so much from them. But merely because someone is a vegetarian does not mean they are doing it personally, to you, to be irritating.
HeartofGlass at 7:43PM on 11/11/08
it's interesting from my perspective, as someone that was a vegetarian for 12 years and is now not.
before, i got hassled constantly about not eating meat. i'd always think, why do you CARE what i eat or don't eat? i'm not bothering you! i'm not telling you what to eat or not eat. but now that i DO eat meat, all of my vegetarian friends hassle me. "that looks disgusting. do you know how much that suffered for you to have it on your plate? is that BLOOD?! EW!"
i guess i can't win!
i think it's just that people on this site are very passionate about food, and we need to remember that each person's passions are not always the same as everyone else's. people feel strongly so they get insolent about a lot of stuff -- have you seen the thread about DARING to put ranch on pizza in the "slice" blog?! ;)
megannesta at 7:49PM on 11/11/08
*btw i didn't mean to insinuate all veggies are like that. or omnivores. my point is, let's just keep the peace! :)
megannesta at 7:51PM on 11/11/08
My only problem with the vegetarians on this board is that we'll most likely never meat. I'd love to be able to chew the fat with some of them. I might then even be tempted to turn over a new leaf.
LunaPierCook at 7:55PM on 11/11/08
So long as the fat involves avocado, high-quality peanut butter, or runny sunny-side up eggs from ethically raised chickens LunaPierCook, I'd be delighted.
HeartofGlass at 8:16PM on 11/11/08
wow. this reminds me of a thread about 12 pages back. anybody got a crayon.
dearrie at 8:42PM on 11/11/08
@LPC ~ "......we'll most likely never MEAT......to chew the fat."
You always find a way to make me laugh.
And I guess your new leaf would be green, at least the turned over side?
I really don't get the hostility of any of the various sides of this argument. I eat nearly everything, my ex was wary of anything green, one daughter was a vegetarian for over a decade and the other eats raw only. My best friend has to eat gluten free and is allergic to soy. We always manage to find something to make everybody happy and there has never been any controversy or snide remarks. Sheesh. It's all food, for guinness sakes.
PerkyMac at 8:44PM on 11/11/08
My take on dietary choices: i'm an omnivore and a hypocrite.
Vegetarians: totally fine.
Vegans: ok, but yr really missing out on soooo much. (i know this isn't a unique argument, but...)
People who eat at McRestaurants: scum of the earth trash. And hey, I'm poor, too.
Why can't we all just get along about food? Because that would be boring.
sailordave at 9:12PM on 11/11/08
When I was in elementary school I had a friend that was a vegetarian. I remember that she wanted to keep it a secret because she was embarrased. I thought it was very cool, and I thought that she would live to be at least a hundred and fourty years old. Back then I guess it was a little taboo, especially in a small country town where farming was the way of life. All these years later I can understand both sides. I do enjoy steak once in awhile, but for the most part, I have actually started to crave just veggies and pasta. Since cutting back on eating meat, I can honestly say I have much more energy and I have lost quite a bit of weight. I just feel better.... but to each his own. I just want to say this.... Thank you God for allowing us to be fortunate enough to have enough food to eat, not to mention the freedom to make choices. Whether we choose to be vegans, vegetarians, or as my friends hubby puts it, "meatatarian", let's remember all of the less fortunate people that are truely hungry. O.K. so I'm a bit of an emotional basket case around the holidays. Sorry.
floridagirl at 9:32PM on 11/11/08
@simon - i just meant that frequently people jump to the assumption that vegetarians - all of them - are going to be self-righteous and preachy all the time when many never are - so the self-righteous and preachy "responses" are preemptive and unnecessary
billyburgwife at 10:10PM on 11/11/08
I think for the next 6 mths i'm going to become a gay vegan, then the next 6 mths i'll try being a straight omnivore, then for 6 mths i'll try being a bi cannibal then.... pass the bacon;-)
huneybumper at 7:27AM on 11/12/08
@Adam - My original post was directed toward the Talk section. I can't recall any posts from SE writers that have been disrespectful to veg folks, but it's true that vegetarian proteins seem to get short shrift around here (and, honestly, everywhere). Tofu or seitan admittedly make for less glorious photos than a big roast.
The more political issues raised about food, the more potential there seems to be for conflict. It doesn't surprise me that people seem more and more tense about dietary choices, since the dicsussion has expanded from just, say organic vs. conventional and meat vs. non-meat to local and seasonal vs. shipped, sustainable vs. factory farmed, HFCS vs. no HFCS, grass-fed vs. grain-fed, etc. The more we know, the more, for a lot of people, the discussion becomes bewildering. Defensiveness is a natural response. (And I know I have been on the defensive side lots of times.)
I also recognize that comments about, say, vegans all being skinny and devoid of energy may seem simply humorous in isolation, but the lack of understanding and respect that underlies such comments is what can be affecting. SE should be a forum for everybody, and a place where people on alternative diets shouldn't have to undergo the hassling and mockery that they face in other areas of their lives.
Also: I don't put ranch dressing on pizza in NYC but I do it when I'm in my California hometown!
producestories at 8:57AM on 11/12/08
producestories - That was very well-put. I think most posters, when they do say something negative, are writing in good humor, but over time comments can create an unwelcoming atmosphere.
And I put ranch dressing on nothing, but will dip crust in red pepper oil!
KarynMC at 10:23AM on 11/12/08
producestories and KarynMC as well, thank you once again for bringing up this issue--I think it would be wise sometimes for posters, before making cruel comments about people they consider 'intolerant' to ask if they are being intolerant themselves.
I guess I was surprised that people weren't more accepting on this board of vegetarians. I admire anyone with a passion for good food--even the omnivores on this board who make, for example, full Thanksgiving feasts for their family. Even if I don't eat meat, I admire the passion they put into what they create and their love and zeal for what they do. It just surprised me that similar respect wasn't accorded to people who might have a different viewpoint, but equal passion about a different approach to eating.
HeartofGlass at 11:53AM on 11/12/08
*sigh* we used to be such a happy family.
waterbaby at 12:41PM on 11/12/08
@veggie people -- I think that if you take a look at the posters, most are either supportive or neutral about people who have a different style of eating, whether it's by choice or for religious or medical reasons.
There are a few posters who may just be cranky and intolerant in general, there are some who may think they're being funny, and there are some who only show themselves when they think they can stir a little controversy.
There's really nothing that can be done about the jerks in the world. They exist. They're going to show up in public places. I suppose SE could start censoring posts, but that's a bit extreme, considering that most people here are civil to each other.
When you, @Heart, say you expected people to be more accepting of vegetarians here, I'm not exactly sure what you were hoping for. You're never going to find a place that's 100% warm and fuzzy about everyone's life choices. But before you tar and feather everyone here as being a food bigot, you might want to look at the ratio of posts that are actually anti-vegetarian. And then look at the names. And see how many regular posters are making the comments. I think you'll find that most of the regular posters are not making negative comments. You'll find positive or neutral comments from the ones who do comment, and the ones who are smarter than me just stay out of these conversations altogether.
dbcurrie at 12:41PM on 11/12/08
Great thread. Laughing my a$$ off.
jdmcdonald at 12:56PM on 11/12/08