Shopsin's: Comical Rudeness
I come in with a group of four today, and we wait for service at Shopsin's. 20 mins later, Kenny (a fat, sweaty, poorly-dressed man) gets to us, and we ask some questions about which food is cooked with nuts (he says a lot of stuff is cooked with peanuts). He points us to the part of the menu which says "severe allergies cannot be accommodated" and we say we understand, we just want to know which items are mainly nut-based.
A couple of questions later, he tells us he's getting bored and that we should probably eat at McDonald's. We tell him to wait a second, and we try to start rush ordering. We stop to ask one question about whether grits are vegetarian, and that's it. "I'm not cooking for you. Eat at McDonald's."
I go to the kitchen to ask him what his problem his, and his response? "You were being assholes, and I'm a prick, and this way we don't have to deal with each other's shit."
I'm half amused, half angry, and definitely filled with wonder at what makes him such a pathetic character. I knew of Shopsin's reputation for rudeness but I had no idea it was this bad. Soup nazi indeed!
Fortunately, we had a wonderful brunch at Clinton Hill Baking Co. instead, so the story has a happy ending.
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48 Comments:
I should probably note that we were extremely polite during the entire time, and did not insult him in any way. On the contrary, we were highly deferential and eager to please till the very end...
terracotta at 5:10PM on 08/05/08
terracotta, congratulations, you have just experienced Shopsin's! It's not anything that you did, I'm sure you were all very polite -- Kenny is just notoriously ornery. I would say, be amused, and let the anger go if you can. He's a real character, one of those New York treasures (though I'm sure it didn't seem that way when he was calling you an asshole...).
I haven't been to the Shopsin's in Essex Market, but I used to go a lot when it was on Bedford Street, when Kenny's wife was still alive. It was always a really fun and completely bizarre experience. You had to get your own coffee. I witnessed people being kicked out for using cell phones, for having more than 4 people together, all sorts of reasons. It's just part of the experience. I'm sure he's gotten worse since his wife passed away.
Glad you enjoyed Clinton Hill!
CookiePie at 6:41PM on 08/05/08
Thanks for the kind words, CookiePie. I remember at the end I even tried to tell him I'm sorry it turned out this way and that I liked his food. He cut me off and told me "I'm not sorry at all, and you're never eating here again."
Sigh. A real New York treasure, all right!
terracotta at 7:32PM on 08/05/08
Looking forward to his book due out in September.
bessfour at 7:33PM on 08/05/08
someone gave me the documentary about kenny shopsin, called "i like killing flies." it was pretty amazing, in every sense of the word.
cybercita at 7:41PM on 08/05/08
oh yea - i've been wanting to see that movie. thanks for the reminder, i'm going to put it on my netflix list now.
i still don't know why i haven't been there yet - i think the menu intimidates me :) how on earth does one choose?
ceforrester at 8:31PM on 08/05/08
I'm sorry. Maybe it's just a Southern thing, but I'm shocked and appalled that anyone would act that way, much less be amused at someone acting that way toward them.
Then again, I never could get through a Seinfeld episode either...
Editmom at 9:22PM on 08/05/08
ceforrester, do you live in manhattan? you can borrow mine. e me at this name at yahoo.
cybercita at 9:32PM on 08/05/08
What I wouldn't give for a bug-eyed smiley right about now.
chiff0nade at 8:34AM on 08/06/08
Just a reminder but jerks come in all flavors, styles and colors. I was on the receiving end of being treated badly when I first moved to the south.
Being called a yankee dago was truely a humbling experience. So when your saying maybe its a southern thing. Is NC in the south?
Ah yea it is. People who behave badly have no geographic capital. There is a Kenny everyplace.
JerzeeTomato at 8:48AM on 08/06/08
not the same since they moved to that crappy food mall.
josefr at 9:44AM on 08/06/08
People who run businesses acting like asses, not stuck up, but just plain asses deserve to rot. I would LOVE to laugh at a restaurant owner who goes out of business and be straddled in lifelong debt because he thought it was quaint to be a dick.
Cassaendra at 11:40AM on 08/06/08
The experience is certainly an unfortunate one. But without Kenny, there would be no Son of Kenny. And without Son of Kenny there would be no stories from Son of Kenny including an amazing theory about Isiah Thomas and the Knicks and SoK's classic invention --- the iBong -- that plays your favorite song when you pull the carb. Do yourself a favor and go for breakfast, sit at the counter, and chat with Son of Kenny. The best possible breakfast experience that can be had in NYC.
scissorkick at 1:07PM on 08/06/08
Please. Typical demanding New Yorker. If you knew anything about Shopsin's you knew that your whiny demands would be met with derision or worse. But you went, anyway, and acted like like a cartoon character of a bitchy, narcissistic navel-gazer. Cook at home, if you're capable, or go to some hippie joint that will tolerate your demands for a self-indulgent meal.
JRonLI at 1:15PM on 08/06/08
terracotta, and most of you commenters don't get Shopsin's. It's not the type of place you ask questions. You order and enjoy the delicious food and entertainment of the Shopsin family.
Kenny Shopsin is a mini-icon in the restaurant industry by fact he doesn't hold his tongue at his customers. Anyone working in the industry has had many moments where they want to yell at customers to get the fuck out, and Kenny actually does. It's part of the charm of his establishment.
No, they're not the most patient family but they're actually quite nice, especially the younger daughter. You either get it, or you don't.
NYCviaRachel at 3:51PM on 08/06/08
I have to say, if you're waiting 20 minutes, (a) there's probably other people waiting behind you while you ask your questions, too, who you're now holding up and (b) you have to have known something about Shopsin's in order to have been willing to wait on a 20-minute line for the food. And I can't imagine hearing about Kenny Shopsin without hearing about the fact that he calls 'em like he sees 'em. So the way I read it, either you're totally insensitive to the people on line behind you, or you were trying to bait the man, or both. Who do *you* think comes off worse in the story?
misha at 4:02PM on 08/06/08
ONLY in NYC!
I'm flabbergasted that you would call such rude, obnoxious behavior "charm".
I'm surprised nobody fired back, and I mean that literally.
I get it - and it stinks like limburger cheese stuffed rotten fish, left out in the blazing sun of this stinking hot summer.
PerkyMac at 4:05PM on 08/06/08
All I can say is that the entire staff of Serious Eats will probably be banned from Shopsin's once Kenny reads this thread. ;)
Adam Kuban at 4:38PM on 08/06/08
@Cassaendra ~ Sometimes you really crack me up!
@Adam ~ Oh Well!!
izatryt at 4:47PM on 08/06/08
PerkyMac, I'm sure that you would hate Shopsin's. The customer is always right, right? Have you ever been in the restaurant business in NYC and had to deal with self-important, picky customers? You'd probably view Kenny's reaction in a different light.
JRonLI at 5:03PM on 08/06/08
Thanks to everyone who sympathizes - it definitely makes me feel better. I have never been kicked out of a restaurant before (and in front of friends) - I was horrified, especially since I had tried so hard to be deferential.
Misha, we were exceedingly polite, and the total conversation time was a couple of minutes or less before Kenny got "bored" and stalked away. There is a difference between speaking your mind and mean-spiritedness, and the latter is what Kenny displayed. I had been to Shopsin's before, and had had a good experience, but then again, I had never been "served" by Kenny before.
terracotta at 7:39PM on 08/06/08
Wait, why would grits have meat in them?
SmittyT at 8:53PM on 08/06/08
Also, why didn't your nut-allergic friend order something that obviously wouldn't have nuts instead of asking about a bunch of items that may or may not have nuts?
And haven't you read the rules of Shopsins, and the many articles about the place?
I am confused why you are upset. That is the drill at Shopsins. You order. You don't ask questions.
SmittyT at 8:54PM on 08/06/08
@JRonLI - Believe me, the restaurant industry has no patent on self-important, picky customers. I've been selling homes for 40 years and I've seen and heard everything. The difference between most business professionals and Kenny is that we treat people with respect and expect to be treated with respect. I have "fired" people who were wasting my time, but never in a disrespectful manner. Never, ever.
PerkyMac at 8:55PM on 08/06/08
http://www.newyorker.com/archive/2002/04/15/020415fa_FACT
SmittyT at 8:57PM on 08/06/08
Oh, I've been kicked out of Shopsin's but I still think it's a treasure.
It was back when they were on Bedford, and I brought my out-of-town brother ("You'll love this Real New York Place!") and as it turned out we were ten minutes too late for the breakfast menu. We really wanted breakfast, so we said, "We'll just finish our coffee and pay up ..." and she THREW US OUT! And made us PAY FOR OUR COFFEE! And when we resisted she told us to NEVER COME BACK!
I was miffed for about an hour and then it was just funny. I gave it a couple of months and came back and she either didn't remember me or didn't care.
I love that place, and wish the whole family well. PerkyMac and TerraCotta and everyone else: chillax! TerraCotta, you've got a great story -- would you have remembered that breakfast otherwise?
musidorus at 10:10PM on 08/06/08
Most people in the service industry are nice because they "have to be" not because they want to. Having grown up in a small family business, I am witness to how oblivious customers are of their behavior and how rude they can be. People expect waiters and customer service people to completely bow down to them for minimum wage. Americans treat service people like shit and they don't even know it. Kenny Shopsin is just acting out in a way a lot of people in the service industry want to. Better to have Kenny yell at you to get out then have him spit in your food or worse.
That's the thing people don't get about New Yorkers - we don't shield our true feelings. If we don't like you, you know it but if we do, you also know it as well. I lived in the South, I was always frustrated with how people would be nice to your face but totally talked smack about you behind your back.
I was a regular at the Shopsin's on Bedford and I was always treated well, never yelled at or kicked out, and yes, they even accomodated my allergies.
jboylee at 11:29AM on 08/07/08
@cybercita - such a kind offer but i've got my netflix and have been looking for a new good one to add to my list anyway.
speaking of movies - king corn is a must-see for anyone interested in farming and where their food comes from.
ceforrester at 12:18PM on 08/07/08
I agree with the New Yorkers: watch "I Like Killing Flies" and then think again about why you were treated the way you were. I mean, he warned you! And you say you'd heard about him but then you actually went to the kitchen to ask him what his problem was? Oh man. I wish I'd been there.
No one is trying to hold up Kenny Shopsin's behavior as admirable, or as appropriate to a service profession. It just is what it is. I admit to being afraid to go there. I loved the documentary, I loved him, but the notion of having to decide what I want under Kenny Pressure from that endless menu...? Scary! I wish with all my heart that I'd known about him when I lived downtown--I wish I'd become a regular. I feel like now, it's just about tourism.
But, I completely support his right to act the way he wants in his establishment. He's posted signs. He tells you how he wants you to behave. If you're going to buck him on it, you've got to expect to be slapped down.
klg19 at 3:12PM on 08/07/08
I'd never go there. Confrontation upsets my stomach. Bur seriously, Terracotta, how could you go there and not know the drill?
Also, I would only question the server at an expensive joint where they appreciate your interest. the day a waiter at Daniel kicks me around for asking questions, I've slipping the tip to Grub Street.
annien at 3:30PM on 08/07/08
Uck.
I'd never heard of the place before this post, but now will go out of my way to avoid it if visiting the area. There is absolutely no excuse for behaving like that that. I don't care how good the food might supposedly be. If you have no tolerance for what is perceived as a "picky" customer then simply find another line of work. You can cook for your family when the mood moves you.
Amandarama at 4:01PM on 08/07/08
Terracotta: I think it is great that you got kicked out
1. You have an actual "Seinfeld" story
2. You handle confrontation quite well
3. You are essentially being verbally abused on this site and you still have nothing but kind words haha
Seriously, I was born and raised here and there is no need for some of the hostility stemming from the people on here. You are all not Kenny Shopsin nor are you related to him (as far as I know) so quite frankly you really should not be speaking for him or his family. Yes that is how he comes off and that is fine but that is not for other people to justify.
So terracotta you missed out on some damn good grub but go back try it again and just know what you want and ask for it. You're not the first and you wont be the last.
JacquelineS at 7:21PM on 08/07/08
I was at there in May and Kenny was fine with me. It was midweek and Kenny was out working the tables. I knew what I wanted so there was no problema there. I mentioned Alice Trilling to him and a nano-second of sorrow appeared on his face. He said, so you know about her. I told him that I had read some of Trilling's work. Then he was discussing Burma with a poly-sci student and asked what does Burma export. I said Burma Shave. Kenny laughed and said that couldn't happen today becuase of the ecologists.
DJ Zouke at 8:43AM on 08/08/08
I was friends in High school with one of his kids. I found Kenny and funny and nice guy. The couple of times I went to Shopsin's I thought the food was good and he was nice enough. He even showed me how he kept the massive menu going with such a small staff and kitchen. It mostly involved par-cooking things, using the deep freezer, and really knowing what you are doing in the kitchen.
OneEyedMan at 2:56PM on 08/08/08
I read Trillin's New Yorker piece a few years back, saw the documentary, and decided I couldn't leave NYC on my last trip till I'd eaten at Shopsin's. I was nervous as hell but went at a slow midday time, had the sweet younger daughter as my waitress, and made up my mind quickly. The spicy chicken soup helped clear out my head cold and Kenny paid no attention to me, but I did get to see him deliver a profanity-laden harangue when a group of guys came in and asked for a table for five. I also got to see him have a solicitous, engaged conversation with a guy in his 20s who was clearly an old friend of Kenny's kids. The guy is about 275 pounds of pure id. I couldn't live or work with him, that's for sure, but I like knowing that he's there in his little corner of the market doing his thing.
marlys at 3:17PM on 08/08/08
I remain baffled that this man is still in business. Everyone talks about how rude he is to customers, whether they deserve it or not, but I keep waiting for someone to say "... but it was worth it because the food was so delicious." With all the fine places to eat in NYC, why put up with that kind of service? I'm a native New Yorker, and yet I can still tell the difference with being direct and being a jerk. My only guess is that when he was on Bedford Street, there must have been a healthy market of masochists who needed this kind of abuse because, well, maybe because they weren't getting enough at home?Or at work?
cjstephens at 4:12PM on 08/08/08
The food is worth it. The food is totally worth it. Kenny is an incredibly gifted, if intuitive, cook, and if he had a tenth as much self-discipline as he has imagination, he'd be up there with Ripert and Ducasse. People always do concentrate on the rules, which are silly and wonderful and arbitrary, at the expense of the cooking. Every restaurant has its ways of excluding undesirable clientele, whether by velvet rope, exorbitant prices, exotic monolingualism, loud music, dim lighting, bland or spicy food, strange location or infuriating reservations policies. Kenny (and his wonderful late wife Eve) tended to be just a little less passive about it.
condiment at 7:40PM on 08/08/08
long live kenny and those brave enough to be who they are in a world
of politically correct mamby pamby's. at least he gives it to you in the face and not in the back. good with the bad, baby.
he's probably one of the most sensitive people who has ever lived.
it's not his fault if he has a 0 bullshit tolerance level.
pooch at 9:55PM on 08/08/08
"Terracotta: I think it is great that you got kicked out"
Hah. Some good philosophical points.
On the other hand, it appears there are people here who if Kenny tripped blind people for fun would call it charming and "politically incorrect" in a cool way. Oh well.
"With all the fine places to eat in NYC, why put up with that kind of service?"
Exactly.
terracotta at 1:21AM on 08/09/08
Since when are there places where you can't ask questions? I understand a chef not tolerating modifications to his cooking, or no complicated requests, but no questions? Please.
Yes, I've read about Shopsin's and I know about the rules. I get that it's a quirky place and that customers should expect some unusual behaviour. But Kenny's acting like a dick, and I don't see why everyone keeps pretending it's charming. It's rude.
Some people think it's an acceptable sacrifice for good food. Fine. Just don't insult the ones who disagree.
piccola at 2:52PM on 08/09/08
One of the great parts of owning your own business is that YOU get to decide if the customer is right and YOU get to decide if that customer was being polite (as they invariably claim they are) and YOU don't have to suck up, kiss ass or bite your lip. I cannot fathom why that is hard to understand. Kenny doesn't owe anybody a damn thing and, if he thinks that you're a dick, that's the way it goes, and he doesn't have to explain it to you if he doesn't want to. He is telling you that he doesn't want to conduct business on your terms, but on his, and that he doesn't need your money, so go spend it someplace else. Pretty simple. What's the big deal? I wish that I had that sort of freedom.
JRonLI at 2:52PM on 08/10/08
i don't think kenny would trip a blind person.... well, maybe only if he was in a party of 5!
pooch at 8:58PM on 08/10/08
Because of this post, I rented "I Like Killing Flies," and my husband and I really enjoued Kenny and the film. Now I have learned through some Googling that Kenny has a book coming out in the latter part of September. If you are interested, it's called, "Eat Me: The Food and Philosophy of Kenny Shopsin" and is availabe for pre-order from Amazon.
robincat at 1:54PM on 08/14/08
I will always have a special place in my heart for Kenny, not just because he creates delicious dishes but because he's smart, fiercely funny, hard-working and mostly because he has the guts to treat annoying people the way we all secretly want to. Minda, Zack, Mara and Luke deserve credit for keeping Shopsin's up and running as well. Dining there never fails make me laugh and smile, no matter how bad my week has been!
JT Eats at 2:55PM on 08/15/08
Funny how many people think that its wrong that he treats customers this way... This is America, where people are free to open a business doing almost anything they want (except drugs, violence, sex, and raw milk cheeses... go figure) If people are willing to go there, we should celebrate it as a freedom we all have to be assholes when we want to be.
Secondly, people aren't masochists, they are sadists... They want to see the other guy get yelled at, which is the genius of this... if he yells at 1 in 10 customers, he's got 1 upset customer, and 9 people who are going to be talking about this restaurant the next day. Not sure if this was the game plan going in or not, but it is brilliant.
If you don't want to be treated badly, either follow his rules, or don't go there... If you don't want strap marks on your ass, don't go to an S&M club... Pretty simple decision making skills here people.
sdalberg at 12:34AM on 08/16/08
Definitely freedom of speech though I probably would have left also and not returned.
sassylady at 12:42AM on 08/16/08
This shtick is old. This is not a place I'm interested in eating at. But if forced to eat there for social reasons I sure as hell would not be peppering Shopsin with questions and would be sure to warn the people I came with to do the same
The original poster was inviting abuse from the second she walked in the door/ There are a million other places to eat in NYC
gaffer at 5:23AM on 08/17/08
I don't think anyone is saying that Kenny is charming. I think we are saying that there is a certain charm--a kind of NYC magic--in his behavior, and we're glad that the dyspeptic take-no-prisoners NYC style still continues, even in one little corner. There was a time when it was practically on tourists' lists of things-to-do to get insulted by a surly NY deli waiter or a surly NY cabbie. Well, now the cabbies are all from somewhere else, and spend the entire trip on their cell-phones anyway, and the waiters are all aspiring actors or corporate-trained waitrons, and that magical NYC experience is gone.
I don't think anyone was saying Kenny finds it quaint to be a dick--he IS a dick, he admits he's a dick (he admitted it to Terracotta in the anecdote), and it's up to you to decide whether you want to brave it or not. I don't think he acts a certain way to build business. He is who he is, and that's incredibly rare and wonderful.
I also don't think the people who are defending Kenny would say we thought it was charming if he tripped blind people--because he wouldn't. He's not sadistic. He's a cranky, idiosyncratic guy who is perfectly aware of his personality drawbacks, and so tries to create a situation where as few people as possible will ride his last nerve. You could say he has all those rules and warnings for YOUR protection; he's making the effort to protect you from himself. If you choose to disregard them--well, what would you say if you kept poking a tiger with a stick and then he took a swipe at you? Would you denounce him for his violent behavior? Or would you look at your own culpability in what happened?
Geez, Kenny just wants to be able to cook. He's found a way to make that happen, and tens of thousands of lucky people have been able to benefit. If you can't cut it in his place (and, seriously--why would grits not be vegetarian? or, if they had bacon in, why would that not be on the menu?), then don't go, but don't start blaming him for the experience.
klg19 at 12:46PM on 08/18/08