How far off-menu should a restaurant be expected to go?

Eating Out

How far off-menu should a restaurant be expected to go?

Posted by dbcurrie, August 24, 2008 at 3:21 PM

In the Virgin Mary debacle at the French Laundry that Anniem has posted about, some people said that the FL should have juiced some tomatoes for her or they should have run to the store for a variety of juices for her to choose from, while others have said that if they didn't have it, that's the end of it.

But really, how much would you expect them (or any similar restaurant) to do?

What if someome asked for ketchup or salsa or hot sauce? What if they looked at the menu and said, "Hey, they have basil and pine nuts and cheese and olive oil. I think a pesto would go better with this dish than the fruity sauce they're offering." Pesto could be made in-house in a matter of moments, but would you expect them to do so? The menu currently online lists a "ranch dressing" on one item. Would it be out of place to ask for a drizzle of oilve oil instead?

Would you expect more or less jumping through hoops for a fixed-menu restaurant like FL, or for a place with a variety menu selections?

I'm not sure yet where I stand on this. For the most part, I'm willing to eat the meal the as the chef has designed it. If something isn't available, I don't expect them to make it special for me. On the other hand, it would be darned impressive to think that the kitchen was willing to go that extra mile.

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Tags: menus, restaurants

56 Comments:

At first, I scoffed at this thinking if it's not on the menu, they don't have to accommodate.

Then it dawned on me, that I criticized a well-received Japanese restaurant in Cleveland and continue to do so to anyone willing to listen. Each year, this restaurant wins newspaper and online awards for being the "best" Japanese restaurant in the region. I usually equate best with authentic when it comes to ethnic foods, which I've noticed is rarely the case.

I was first introduced to this restaurant when I moved here and was told this was a place to be seen and authentic. I ordered a forgettable dish. I figured it was just a bad night.

I brought my husband on my second trip and eyed sukiyaki on the menu, and asked the waitress if I could order gyudon. For those who don't know, gyudon is a rice bowl dish. The sauce is essentially a sukiyaki base, cooked with beef slices you would use in sukiyaki, along with onions (I hate onions, but it adds to the flavor), which I knew they had because I had some tempura the previous trip.

They came back and said, I'm sorry. It's not on the menu, so we can't serve it. We wouldn't know how much to charge you as well. I was kind of shocked, because it was really such simple dish. I didn't even care how much they charged me. The waitress came in closer and told me that the cook is Korean and doesn't have the recipe. I understood clearly. In my mind, I bitterly thought, "authentic, riiight."

My husband ordered the sukiyaki and I shuddered when I saw it served on a plate. It didn't even come close to the real thing. It was a stir fry. *roll eyes* No wonder...

The place has a reputation to uphold (as crappy as I think their food is), and if something that isn't on the menu isn't up to snuff, you may come away with a bad taste in your mouth about your experience because the person who prepared it didn't really know WTF they were doing.

Anyway, I did find an authentic Japanese restaurant run by a Japanese family in Cleveland that makes meals for me that aren't on the menu. The restaurant isn't fancy looking despite being just a couple dollars less expensive than the place "to be seen."

Cassaendra at 4:02PM on 08/24/08

This is a tough call. I am the kind of person that will eat anything and enjoy the tasting menu's of the Chef's creations, just the way they envisioned it. BUT... my wife on the other hand, is not as adventurous and I appreciate those Chef's willing to make a slight change to accomodate. BUT... some people may go too far and decide that they have better/different ideas than the Chef and start creating their own dishes, which is not the purpose of a Chef's menu. So...

jonfoxx at 4:40PM on 08/24/08

It they don't have it then they don't have it. No amount of wishing it to be different will change it. Case closed and pick a new beverage.

For the rest of FL debacle, I personally think Anniem was out of line to ask for substitutions in *that* restaurant. (Food allergy excepted. But that diner could have opted for the vegetarian menu.) The whole point of the FL experience is that the chef has designed a complete menu. And according to Anniem, the food was flawless and flowed from one dish to the next. Substitutions of any kind would destroy that balance. I don't blame the staff for being taken aback by the request. I mean, it's the whole point of the experience -- you enjoy the entire, carefully crafted menu.

It's like asking someone to paint you a Mona Lisa, but make her blond, and smiling with her teeth showing. It would be a great picture ... but it be would be Andy Warhol's Marilyn, not the Mona Lisa. Both great in their own right but not the same thing.

Now, in a different restaurant, that serves from a regular menu, asking for reasonable substitutions is fine. Reasonable meaning, it is something already on the menu that night -- not something you know that can make but aren't offering today. And it is equally fine for the staff to politely decline. A guest doesn't know how much of any one dish or ingredient the kitchen has on hand, or whether that item is already prepared a different way, so it cannot be substituted. Making changes may appear possible on your side of the menu, but may not be so easy to do in the kitchen. So ask if you wish but if they say no, accept it and move on.

And if you have a place like the Japanese one in Cleveland that Cassandra goes to, aren't you lucky! (BTW, just because the chef was Korean, doesn't mean he cannot be an expert in authentic Japanese cuisine. Not all Italian chefs are Italian, or French chefs French. Doesn't mean they cannot make authentic Italian or French food. Julia Child come to mind.)

kjgibson at 5:07PM on 08/24/08

A friend of mine who waitressed her way through Columbia once remarked that one day, during his Presidential bid, Al Gore came to the (fairly upscale) place (I wish I had asked her which one) with his staff. He ordered a bowl of raisin bran for dinner. Needless to say, as this was not a diner, this was not an item the establishment had on hand. One of the staff ran to the nearest bodega to get a box.

In general, I think it's better for the restaurant to accomodate the customer. I'm a vegetarian and would like to avoid seafood restaurants, but my father will ONLY eat at seafood restaurants and some 'hunk of protein' houses. If it's not a traditional place with no vegetarian entrees, he won't eat there, so I ask to order a side as my main dinner and offer to pay extra. I know the kitchen is probably thinking 'what is a vegetarian doing here,' but I would hope the kitchen could understand that often the choice of restaurant is a compromise.

I guess I would consider these reasonable requests, provided the customer is willing to be charged extra a reasonable amount for the difference:
1. Ordering a side or appetizer as a main
2. Ordering a dish from the lunch/brunch menu as dinner
3. Leaving off or adding certain sauces or ingredients

Reasonable, but customer must be prepared that restaurants can't accommodate their requests:
1. Dealing with severe food allergies
2. Altering cooking techniques (such as broiling rather than frying fish)
3. Asking for certain (slow-cooking) dinner foods like baked potatoes at luch

HeartofGlass at 6:47PM on 08/24/08

I think it's awfully pompous for someone to go to a restaurant and order off menu or ask for substitutions. Go someplace else if you don't like what's on the menu. I'm not talking about ordering a side as a main (ie., HeartofGlass), but if someone walked into your home and fixed him or herself dinner, it'd be fairly appalling. I see this as a close equivalent.

Sure, you're a paying customer, but I don't think for a second that your money buys you the right to be that demanding when you could just be somewhere else. If a restaurant is willing to do that, so be it, but I don't think there's any grounds to expect similar treatment in any place where that's not part of the concept (eg Subway).

Sorry, but this kind of behavior is a major pet peeve of mine.

renzata at 7:54PM on 08/24/08

Speaking of far off the menu, we went to our usual place last week and the server accidentally handed us the specials from the day before. I started to order from that, and he got this weird look on his face and then looked at the sheet and explained that it was from the day before and he'd go get the correct one.

"Bummer," I said, "that sounded pretty good, maybe we should come back yesterday."

He laughed at that and then offered to see if they could make the special for me, anyway. I thought it was a nice offer but I declined. It wasn't a big deal to choose something else that they had planned on serving.

If I do ask for something special, it's usually along the lines of ordering the wedge salad with something other than blue cheese dressing they list on the menu, which I know isn't a major upheaval of the kitchen.

As far as running to the store for somethng for Al Gore, I imagine that, first of all, it was a big deal to have him there, and second of all, there probably weren't a whole lot of regular customers around because of security issues. So of course you'd get him what he wanted. Not like there was a lot else to do if the restaurant was empty.

dbcurrie at 11:15PM on 08/24/08

The amount of accomodation you make to a diner should be inversely porpotionate to the sophistication of your establisment.

as you go up the scale from a neighborhood diner, to say FL you deal more and more with dishes and food as complete flavors/profiles. move one thing around, sub/add/ remove things and you substantially change the dish. If i am eating at my local chow shack, and i wanted something not on the menu, i would ask and be very pleased if they whipped up what i wanted. now at an upscale place, with a known chef, and strong idea what they are trying to convey with their cuisine, i get offended when i see a salt or pepper shaker on the table. i expect that dish to be a small window into the head and palate of the chef. letting me mettle in its preparation is not what i went for.

concreteoatmeal at 11:17PM on 08/24/08

If the restaurant has all the ingredients to make the item, and the kitchen has the time to make it, they should. A restaurant should always make every effort to accommodate medical or dietary concerns (i.e. food allergies, vegetarians, vegans, etc.) to the best of their ability. On the other hand, the diner should not expect to go to an Italian restaurant and ask for curry. They should also not expect that an off-menu item will taste "like mom used to make." Simple substitutions or ommissions are ok (like asking for pesto instead of alfredo when both sauces are on the menu), but asking for a sauce not on the menu is not. Also, it depends on whether you demand or ask, and (if you're a regular) how you tip. On that note, if you do ask for special accommodation, tip well.

beth1 at 12:44AM on 08/25/08

I don't agree that chefs should whip up a dish on the whim of the customer. (I also don't believe the customer is always right. This idea is wrong on so many levels, I don't even want to get into it now...) Substituting sauce on a pasta or asking for a different salad dressing is fine, but wanting a completely different dish than what is on the menu is not okay. When that happens, you are throwing the hopefully smoothly running kitchen off their game a bit. As for being able to order a brunch item at dinner, unless it is at Waffle House, I don't think that is a fair request either. I know the restaurant I work in has a certain cook work brunch every weekend because she makes eggs perfectly. The night cook doesn't even know the brunch menu because he is never there. Also, not having a bar means there wouldn't be bloody mary mix in the restaurant, and the suggestion that the kitchen would pull out the blender and puree tomatoes and season the liquid to taste like a bloody mary just for you is maybe the most ridiculous thing I have ever heard. (Even more so than the table that wanted me to go order them espresso from a nearby restaurant because we don't have an espresso maker. I am not your personal assistant, and yours is not my only table. )

brittj8585 at 1:42AM on 08/25/08

I guess it's worth a shot to ask... but just expect to be turned down. And don't get all huffy and puffy when they do say no.

smile at 2:50AM on 08/25/08

At Bouchon, I was asked if I wanted to substitute something for the enormous amount of frites that would be arriving at our table, as my husband and I both ordered the steak frites. I was asked if I had peanut allergies, because the fries are cooked in peanut oil, and I was asked if I had other nut allergies (the lemon tart has a hazelnut crust ...) When I couldn't finish my steak, I wasn't going to ask to have it wrapped, because if Thomas Keller wanted me to have a to-go box, one would likely appear. They took my steak, wrapped it, bagged it and also put an amazing baguette and a little box of cookies in the bag as a treat. The staff was extremely accomodating, but I didn't really ask for anything special. I think if I had, they would have tried to accomodate it to the best of their ability.

maered at 4:23AM on 08/25/08

If it's in the house, it should be made available to the patron. The worst thing a restaurant can do is rest on its laurels hoping that past successes will carry it forward. Reputations must be built, but also maintained.

If a patron requests a piece of broiled fish with olive oil and garlic, this is hardly a daunting request. It might be for health reasons or because the patron is simply craving clean, uncomplicated flavors but didn't feel like cooking. Accommodating such a request will hardly throw the kitchen into a tailspin and it doesn't compromise the flavor or integrity of the food (like a well-done steak might).

therealchiffonade at 5:39AM on 08/25/08

at the coffee shop I work at we have a group of ladies that come in every wed and fri to play mahjong mind you these are adult women in their 60's and 70's. one friday we had a huge catering order to go out, and when that was finished we had run out of shrimp salad. I thought no big deal, the mahjong ladies almost never order shrimp unless its during lent, and even then most would rather have a veggie wrap or tuna salad. well one "lady" ordered shrimp, when I told her we were out for the day, she literally threw her menu at me and started screaming how unfair i was, at the top of her lungs. people were looking at me like i had just reached over and slugged her. (I wanted to at that point) she didnt quite get to the point where she was on the floor kicking and screaming, but I think she was close to it. I tried to calm her down but she was about an inch from the brink of hysteria, and believe me I wanted to shove her over the brink of something. Anyway I finally calmed her down by promising her I would make sure she had shrimp salad to take home, even though it wouldnt be ready for her lunch. when she was ready to leave I had the salad ready, and she just smiled and said she changed her mind, and didnt want it after all.

huneybumper at 7:31AM on 08/25/08

@Huney: I would have taken a dump in her coffee.

Cassaendra at 8:09AM on 08/25/08

I rarely order off menu, but if I'm at an upscale restaurant and paying a little more, than I expect more than just delicious food, I expect the service to make me feeling comfortable. Now, I haven't had the luxury yet to go one of these places where you get a tasting menu carefully crafted by the chef, but call me crazy, I can't imagine how the chef thinks that everyone is exactly the same and that the whole meal is going to be perfect for their palate. Thus, I think that minor changes should be at least attempted to be accommodated. And I would be really upset if the service treated me like I was crazy for wanting to change the Chef's "perfectly crafted meal." I'm paying more for the service in addition to the food.

Luckily, I'm not very picky and I usually order things as is, but I thought I'd bring up the point because I do believe that part of the high end dining experience is feeling comfortable.

blankplate at 8:19AM on 08/25/08

I order off the menu only at one place, a restaurant where I know the entire staff, am friendly with the chef and his wife and have worked in the kitchen on occasions and the sous-chef, the guy who actually runs the place day to day, is a good friend and co-food-obsessive. When I go in it is usually late, after the rush, and they welcome the curveballs I throw at them. I sometimes will go in with a bag of exotic mushrooms and send it to the kitchen and ask them to cook them for me. I've gone in once with a huge dry aged steak and had him cook it up for us all to share for family meal after the kitchen closed. They comp me stuff sometimes, and often send me little off the menu treats, or ask me to taste things that they are working on and thinking of putting on the menu. That's because I have that relationship with them. I would never, ever dream of behaving this way in any other restaurant in which I didn't know anyone, much much less a leading, crown jewel of an establishment as the FL.

There is a certain amount of respect for the craft of the chef's kitchen AND the house's waitstaff when eating at a place like that. It is up to them to welcome you and make you feel pampered, but it is up to you as a diner to also submit to their program, as it is a performance of sorts, and because that's what you presumably knew you were getting yourself into in the first place. Would you go to the opera, raise your hand at the beginning of the performance, and ask them to do Oklahoma instead?

simon at 12:13PM on 08/25/08

@simon: bravo...that is a comment I can get behind! Well put.

Cary at 1:31PM on 08/25/08

@huney, it sounds like dementia setting in. Her, not you.

One problem with "off the menu" ordering that I hadn't thought of until now is that no matter what's on the menu and how carefully crafted or authentic or magnificent it is, you really don't know who is in the kitchen or how capable they would be of creating a new dish, no matter how simple. The kitchen may be staffed with very capable people who have been taught to cook exactly those dishes that are on the menu in precisely one way. But they might not have the skills to create a new dish. Or they might not have the permission of the owners/managers to create new dishes. Lots of reasons why a request might not be honored.

Like the Korean cook who didn't know how to cook the gyudon, it might not be that he was incapable of cooking that dish, if he had proper instructions, it might simply be that he never heard of it, or, if he heard of it, he might not know exactly what was in it, or the sequence to prepare it properly.

I guess maybe the reason I don't think much about ordering off the menu, myself, is that I go to a place to see what they have, not to create dishes. If there's something that I want, and I want it done in a specific way, I'll make it myself. In a restaurant, I'm there to enjoy their vision, not mine.

dbcurrie at 2:37PM on 08/25/08

I don't think it's an artistic issue so much as a practical one. Cooks come in hours before service to prep all their sauces and garnishes. Their stations are set up to streamline service. If they have to break from a tight rhythm to make something unexpected and from scratch, it's not impossible but neither is it fair on the establishment. I think substitutions are only reasonable in the case of allergies, and even then, it is preferable to either call ahead or consider something else on the menu. In an era in which most restaurants post their menus online, why not research your options before you choose your establishment?

Why do people feel so entitled?

frenetica at 3:59PM on 08/25/08

Re: the French Laundry off menu issue.

I think that a big part of the problem is that Annie (as I did and I'm sure a few others out there did as well) read Service Included by Phoebe Damrosch. In the book, Phoebe does go to some lengths detailing the kinds of accommodations they are willing to make. I am not sure that the tomato water sub for tomato juice falls into that category, but the book certainly implies that changes to the menu - especially when noted either when you make your reservation or when they call to confirm your reservation - are welcome.

lexophile at 4:09PM on 08/25/08

The menu is NOT a suggestion, it's what the restaurant has to eat that day.

Minor changes are not a big deal. Different dressing, a different sauce that would already be made, fine. What I hate is when people special order and than get peeved about the cost change.

For example, from something posted: a pesto sauce is FAR more pricey than a simple red or alfredo sauce. Yes, it's a simple change to make, however it is not an even pick across. If you request a change to a more expensive option, you are going to have to pay for it. Period. Pricing is a MAJOR reason to keep from special ordering, b/c entrees are broken down and priced according to their ingredients. That means the server/chef has to figure out how to charge you appropriately. No one is really writing down by hand costs and such. It's all done by computer, so you've just messed up the books too.

Varuna77 at 5:43PM on 08/25/08

Switch a sauce, leave out the mushrooms? Sure. Make your own recipe? NO
So often as a server we tried to accomodate these complicated requests. More often than not the guest did not like it as well as they thought they would. My answer (to myself of course) "Duh! That's why the chef did not put it on the menu!"

Cary at 5:49PM on 08/25/08

For the record (kjgibson's comment on ethnicity and authenticity), after reading what I had written I can see where what I wrote might be misconstrued poorly.

The waitress came in closer and told me that the cook is Korean and doesn't have the recipe. I understood clearly. In my mind, I bitterly thought, "authentic, riiight."

My thought was centered more around the person who was cooking could not create anything Japanese outside his/her box of recipes because they didn't have a full range of knowledge of Japanese cuisine, regardless of being Korean, or any ethnicity for that matter, and mentioning further down about a restaurant run by a family from Japan being superior.

I meant no disrespect to the person being Korean, as I've grown up with and patronize a number of Korean establishments where the older Koreans speak Japanese 1000x more fluently than I do, and cook Japanese food just like my mother did.

My apologies if that came across poorly.

Cassaendra at 6:30PM on 08/25/08

@blankplate - i've been lucky to be treated to a tasting menu at a very few nice restaurants, and it's always been my experience that when doing so, the server would ask if we had preferences or allergies/dietary requirements (so my vegetarianism/pescatarianism was always taken care of). often they would use seasonal ingredients but if there was something you just hated (mushrooms or whatever) they would ask when you ordered the tasting menu so they could accommodate that.

as for anything else, i think i'm just one more vote for the - simple substitutions good, whole new dishes bad perspective, plus pay for any changes and tip well for the hassle. (i hate to quote maid in manhattan, but there's a line in the movie when the old butler tells jennifer lopez that they serve people, but they are not their servants. same applies for restaurant staff.)

of course, the rules don't apply if you go to in'n'out - the best part about the place is their secret menu!

billyburgwife at 8:07PM on 08/25/08

I think any decent restaurant, even one with a tasting menu only, will be prepared to offer alternates for someone who is vegetarian, who has specific allergies, or who follows a known religion's dietary restrictions. Or, if they can't accommodate those things, they'll say so when someone asks as they make reservations. Those options are probably laid out somewhere so that when someone says, "I can't have shellfish," they aren't creating a never-been-seen-before new dish, they are simply offering the substitute in place of the shellfish. Or, they're pointing to shellfish-free items on the menu.

However, with some places, if you don't ask for these things early enough, it's just not going to happen. This reminds me of a character I ran into on a cruise ship. Every time I saw him, he was demanding something, and then he'd get all huffy because they couldn't accommodate him. "Well, go GET IT for me," he'd say. The fact that were were in the middle of an ocean didn't make one whit of difference to him.

dbcurrie at 9:21PM on 08/25/08

First of all, my name is annien, not anniem.

Second of all, thank you @lexophile. The quote from Ms. Damrosch's book is: "...although the chef's menu was set, almost any change could be made to accommodate the guest." Ms. Damrosch was writing about her experience as the first female Captain at per se. I swear to goodness I'd like to write to that lady and ask her what she meant by getting me into all this trouble!

db, thanks for continuing this discussion. It's an interesting one and everyone is making good points.

May I please have Thousand Island dressing instead of that fake balsamic crap? Oops. There I go again.

annien at 9:35PM on 08/25/08

After years of working in the restaurant industry, I came to realize that customers who want to go way off menu are usually pretty unhappy people. Period. In general, if you're not happy with what's on the menu, you're probably not going to be happy with anything we come up with on the fly.

Of course, I've gone off menu as a customer, but not too, too off menu--I'm talking "Can you make that omelet with egg whites only and no cheese?"--and I realize that if a restaurant doesn't have it, they don't have it and no amount of criticism and the size of my temper tantrum isn't going to make it magically appear in front of me.

I also wouldn't continue to patronize a restaurant that wouldn't fulfill simple off-menu requests.

And this:
"I meant no disrespect to the person being Korean, as I've grown up with and patronize a number of Korean establishments where the older Koreans speak Japanese 1000x more fluently than I do, and cook Japanese food just like my mother did."

is the equivalent of "I'm not prejudiced; some of my best friends are Korean."

Tokyorosa at 12:15AM on 08/26/08

@cass, I, for one, didn't see anything wrong with what you said. I took it to mean that he probably grew up cooking and eating Korean food, so that's what he knows better than anything else. Unless he got very well trained in another cuisine, he's not going to be able to do anything authentic, except the items he has specifically been taught to make. I don't think it's a slur, it a fact of life. Even if our moms didn't teach us, we pick up a lot from watching and eating whatever is served in the home. We can certainly be trained in other cuisines, but from the way you described the place, that's not what I'd expect from the chef.

@annien, I think it's interesting. There was another thread a while back about Shopsins (or whatever it's called) where it's well known that the cook/owner might toss you out if you get too persnicky about your order, and many people think it's the charm of the place. Sorry about they typo, too. Those persnickety m and n keys are right next to each other.

I think it might boil down to a problem with expectations. At Shopsins (sp?) the savvy customer expect that there might be some rudeness and they may not even get served. So that's deemed to be okay by many people, even though they'd be upset if the kid at the counter at BK treated them that way. On the other hand, if you expect that you'll be treated like visiting royalty and you're just treated like a regular customer, it's a letdown.

Mmmmm....thousand island. On my wedge salad, instead of blue cheese, please!

dbcurrie at 12:19AM on 08/26/08

First of all the issue (about the juicing a tomato) was the drink not the food. The bar is stocked seperate of the kitchen and should have basic ingredients of what any bar should have. A well stocked bar as one would expect at a fine dining establishment should have some tomato juice. I keep a can in my pantry for emergency bloody or virgin marys. No one asked the chef to whip up a tomato, this was the bartender's job. Now if I can go anyplace and order a bloody mary why can you not get one at the FL? No one asked the chef to juice a tomato, the bartender AGAIN was more than capable of finding a ripe tomato and taking to back and throwing it in the blender. Bars have very nice blenders.
I also am calling "bullshit" on this one. The FL has NEVER made a bloody/virgin mary EVER in the long history/any incarnations of the restaurant? How about bullshit!
Annie didn't ask for a slow comfortable screw against a wall with a twist or a rocky mountain mother#$%&*@, she asked for a bloody mary with no booze. You would think from the comments that she had asked for some arcane drink with rare ingredients.
The topic should be should restaurants have a decent bar? Yes they damn well better. Because now people are going to ask for a bloody/virgin mary. Why? Because we mentioned they would not make one.

JerzeeTomato at 3:27AM on 08/26/08

it's my understanding that they don't have a bar at FL, no bartender, no blender.

Just my opinion but a bloody mary seems an odd beverage choice to go with the food at a place like FL. The strong flavors would completely overwhelm the food.

VerasTastyFreeze at 9:04AM on 08/26/08

@ JerzeeTomato: The French Laundry does not have a bar due to the proximity of the restaurant to a church.

pbisNOTmyname at 9:35AM on 08/26/08

I'd forgotten that it was mentioned that there was no bar due to the restaurant's close proximity to a church. So since they have no bar and we're dealing with people in a specialized industry, where you have mixologists, sommelier, chefs who make only soups, sauces, pastries, et al, is it safe to assume that there is a possibility that no one in the restaurant would know how to make a proper Virgin Mary, at least to make one to match the high standards that the restaurant advertises?

I have no clue what goes in one, mainly because I don't drink any alcohol or faux (virgin) drinks, so I don't know how complex the drink is to be perfect.

Cassaendra at 10:44AM on 08/26/08

Hmm,

Difficult subject. I personally expect the staff to make me feel welcome. After that all things usually work out. Now, things work a bit differently in Europe, but I was in Cyrus last fall, which is close to the FL and enjoyed myself very much.
We had a similar experience where the waiter tried to sell us the wine choices with the tasting menu (all french), while we wanted to try californian wines. They repeated that these were the best choices, etc. Allthough they did seem a bit disappointed, we were adamant and got along very well with their sommeliers.
I think we must have caught them off guard, and they needed a few seconds to get their feet back.
A second moment came quickly afterwards, when my wife asked them innocently if they had a michelin star :-). I think the captain stayed away from us afterwards, but the rest of the staff seemed even friendlier.

All in all I think the waiting staff is human and should be treated as equals.
They know what they have, you know what you want. If the atmosphere is friendly all will work out for the best.

Gouda at 11:21AM on 08/26/08

@Jerzee, since the FL doesn't have a bar, I guess the question is whether they should be expected to stock all of the nonalcoholic mixers and whatnot that a standard bar would have on hand, minus the booze. In this case, the FL has chosen not to stock those items, and being the FL, they survive very well without those items.

A regular restaurant might make a different choice, but in my experience, a place that doesn't have a bar picks and chooses what alternatives they will have, and doesn't stock the full range of possibilities. And no, there aren't that many places around here that are booze-free, but there are a lot that open well before the liquor license goes into effect, and the drink options are usually basic fountain drinks, coffee and tea. The mixers and garnishes don't show up until the bartender does. And there are some that serve beer and wine, but no mixed drinks, and thus no mixers, bartenders or faux/virgin drinks.

dbcurrie at 1:36PM on 08/26/08

Jerz, I will never be able to ask for "a slow comfortable screw against a wall with a twist or a rocky mountain mother#$%&*@", because it embaresses me even to ask for a virgin mary for fear that Catholics will be offended.

db, I love wedge salad...and no I did not ask for it at TFL!

annien at 4:55PM on 08/26/08

If I knew there was something that I would need substituted I would call teh restaurant ahead of time and see if that's the kind of thing they would/could do. Once we went to a rather upscale place during restaurant week and couldn't partake in the somewhat prix-fix menu, so we called ahead and asked if it would be a problem. The woman said no problem, but just mention it to the waiter the night in question. When we got there we mentioned it at the front desk and to the waiter, who disappeared for a moment and then came back offering a tofu option. I expected them to say that they couldn't change anything and to try something or somewhere else., buy they didn't. I was really grateful to them for doing that because it was a fantastic dinner and they clearly didn't need to.

Stufsocker at 11:44AM on 08/27/08

I had called TFL a week beforehand to confirm our rez and discuss my guest's food allergies. They had said there would be no problem. Thus my annoyance when the Captain hemmed and hawed.

annien at 12:16PM on 08/27/08

I just wanted to say that this thread was so interesting, and brought to light such a fascinating debate about cuisine as 'art' (and the integrity of the chef as an artist constructing a menu and a recipe) versus the hospitality nature of service, and serving the customer what he/she wants, what they CAN eat, and the fact that they have to live with the meal (digesting it) afterward, regarding food allergies, dietary restrictions and beliefs and so forth.

HeartofGlass at 7:08AM on 08/28/08

@Heart, I'm glad it amused you. It think it's an interesting topic, too. I know that chef's tasting menus at restaurants have become uber-trendy of late, and there are restaurants where there are no options except what the cook has produced "today." There are some people who would think that it would be a great adventure to dine on whatever the chef has chosen, and I know some people who would completely abhor the idea of going to a restaurant and not being able to pick and choose. Neither person is wrong, they just have different ideas about dining out.

Funny, though, letting the chef decide the menu isn't much different than going to someone's house for dinner. A good host would ask about allergies and dietary restrictions, but after that, the host chooses what to serve and how to serve it. After that, the guest can choose to eat or not eat a particular dish, but wouldn't normally say, "Hey, I saw some carrots in your fridge, could you cut some of those up for me?" If it was your lifelong best friend or you mom, you might be able to get away with that, but even in those cases, I think it's reasonable for the host to turn you down if you're asking for something that's not going to fit in with whatever has already been planned. Whether that turndown is reasonable or not depends on the request and the situation. What seems reasonable to the guest might not be reasonable to the host.

Of course, when you're paying for the food in a restaurant, you expect a bit more accommodation than when you're a guest at someone's home. But even at a restaurant, I don't think it's reasonable to expect that every request can be granted.

dbcurrie at 2:50PM on 08/28/08

There are, however, places where the dining "customer" or guest is always right and always catered to - no matter what the request (apart from the illegal, pretty much) - and where great pains are taken to ensure that this service level along with the highest level of food quality be not only hit but consistently maintained. Those places would be certain private clubs and certain private corporate dining rooms.

Some consider this the ultimate level of service. Others consider it demeaning to the concept of food artistry and service-as-job in today's work environment.

Generally though, I've found that those who have been on the receiving end of this level of service will not ever willingly give it up . . . and those who have been on the giving end of this level of service (if they remain capable of the flexibility and skill level it demands) are very well paid for being able and willing to provide it.

foodvox at 3:59PM on 08/28/08

@foodvox, I would think you'd get that sort of control, also, if you hired a personal chef. Maybe not the service (as in serving the food) and probably not the ability to change things on a whim, but you should be able to dictate both menu and individual ingredents if you've got a personal chef, either on staff or for particular meals or events.

I don't know, really, if I want that level of control, though. In my kitchen, I make what I want, when I want it, and the way I want it. When I go out, I'm more than happy to choose from what's available, even it it's not the way I'd make it at home. Trying things a different way is part of the dining experience, for me.

dbcurrie at 4:24PM on 08/28/08

Yes, dbcurrie, agreed - but more likely this could happen with a private chef than with a personal chef, though.

Some people enjoy this sort of "control" others don't. Everyone, I think, feels as if there are times when things just did not go right in the way they were served or in the things they were served. It's a natural part of life.

People who dine out often (more often than they dine at home) due to the demands of their business lives sometimes develop a higher need or desire for control over what they are being served just as a reaction to getting served lots of things they don't want to eat or can not eat (if they care at all about what they are putting in their mouths and most people have to at a certain point if they want to remain healthy). It may appear as "selfishness" or egotism. But it may actually be more like a survival tactic.

To my mind the higher the promise of service in the restaurant (and the higher the cost for the meal that is attendant upon that and almost promised upon that) the higher my expectations would be that if I asked for something ("if" - generally I am fairly easy to feed) I would somehow be made comfortable by the response to my request . . . it might not be that I would actually get what I wanted but I would not expect to be made to feel uncomfortable for making the request.

It's possible that this is a rather old-fashioned notion of service expectations, though - given the societal shift in the notion of what a chef is: a person in a trade who is now a person in a profession or an artist.

foodvox at 5:00PM on 08/28/08

I was witness to the ultimate in Chef arrogance. This was a hotel restaurant that caters to business travelers. A guest checked in late
after travelling all day and had jet lag. The guest made it to the Dining room minutes before closing. He just wanted something light like scrambled eggs with toast. The Chef threw tantrum and said he was not a breakfast cook. The guest was tired and asked the kitchen they must have eggs and bread to make toast. Chef would hear nothing of it. The idiot chef didn't realize that this was the last ticket and the guest could be taken care of in 5 minutes. No everyone had to stay until the guest had 3 courses. Needless to say the Chef got a complaint and the General Manager had no choice but to let the Chef go. The Chef stormed out saying he was not hired to be a breakfast cook. He is still out there with no clue.

andywho at 11:10PM on 08/28/08

@Andy, methinks the chef was on his way out, anyway, and management used this to shut the door. Few people get fired over one incident, unless it's something huge. If management wanted to keep the chef and make the guest happy, they could have found someone else to cook the eggs.

On the other hand, the chef could have had a tremendously bad day, and being asked to cook eggs after the kitchen was clean and eveything was put away might have been the last straw. The idea of cooking the eggs and then cleaning up afterward might have set him off, or he might have felt that eggs were too far below him. Ya never know what thing will make someone explode.

I think it was attitude more than egg cookery that was the problem, though. I doubt this was the only time the chef blew up about something. It just happened to be the last time he blew up at this particular job.

@foodvox, the whole idea of "being made to feel uncomfortable" is so subjective that it's hard to make a judgement on whether the problem is the way things are said, or the perspective of the person who is hearing the information.

For example, annien said that the captain hemmed and hawed when he was told about the beef allergy, and she had a negative reaction to the captain's response. Yes, she asked for this when she made the reservation, but it's possible that through some communication error, the captain didn't have this information. Or perhaps he knew that one table was promised a beef-free menu, but he didn't know that it was this particular table. Should he have known? Yes. In a perfect world, he should have known, and the correct response should have been "of course we can do that." But if he didn't know for sure, it was probably wiser to check with the kitchen first, to see if the request could be honored or not.

The fact that he had to check at all was a glitch in the system, but if he honestly didn't know that this particular table had already been promised the beef-free meal, then his words alone (not considering attitude) were not a personal slight to the guests. Then again, if he was rude, it doesn't matter what he said, he should have been polite while explaining that he would have to check to make sure the substitution was possible.

dbcurrie at 2:34PM on 08/29/08

@dbcurrie - do you remember a show on PBS called "Ethics in America"? I loved that show. This situation would have been a perfect one to have had up for debate.

It's funny how often things happen where both parties concerned are "right" in ways. Forget about strife in the Mideast - it happens even between siblings on a day to day basis.

I wasn't there, so can't make a judgement call that I would be completely sure of, in the TFL/Annie case. But even if I had been there it's possible my call might have some bias attached. This is how it goes, so often in these sorts of things where the questions lead to shady areas. One just has to take a stance eventually, and that stance is often based on how one feels about lots of things - not just what one "thinks" is right.

I know Annie (in a virtual sense) and don't believe she is the sort of person to imagine slights - therefore I have a bias towards believing her that somehow something was done that was "wrong" in this situation.

Whose "wrong" it was (if it was) is up for grabs. The reservationist? The staff trainer? The manager? The person who wrote the policies and procedures manual? The chef or cook on the line? The captain? Annie? Who knows.

In the back of my mind I go back to the Damrosch book. That is where Annie got her ideas of how TFL would be. And personal memoirs have a curious way of being in the middle of confusions after they've been written and read, often. They're funny that way.

Regardless of what might have been the reality or the cause, I still return to one final thought which I know is true: There is a certain type of person - one who should have been answering Annie's concerns - and that type of person should be there during each service at TFL.

This type of person is trained and capable of making things right, one way or another. For so often it is not just the reality of the request one is dealing with when it gets to this point - it's a lot of other stuff that's started brewing somehow due to things not working quite right. These people know what to say and how to say it and what to do to make the person dining feel cared for and satisfied (or at least satisfied "enough"). It goes beyond politeness or words. Possibly it's a gift or talent held within.

That person should have been there (to my mind). It's as simple as that. At this level of dining someone like that needs to always be there.
:)

foodvox at 4:08PM on 08/29/08

@foodox, I like your idea. However, even in that case, it takes two to make the idea work. The guest has to admit that there is a problem. Many people won't.

Even in less upscale restaurants, it's not unusual for a manager, owner, or some other management person to wander around and ask people how everything was. Of course, some of them ask it in a way that's similar to "how are you" where you don't really want to know how the person is, it's just a greeting. But even when the question is sincere, a lot of folks will say that everything is fine, because they don't want to make a fuss.Or, the question will be asked before the problem occurs, or too late to make a difference.

So your "fixer" would not only need to be able to find creative solutions and soothe ruffled feathers, but he/she would also have to be available at all times to all guests, and also be able to convince people to tell him/her what the problems are. Or she/she would have to make several stops at each table to make sure things are progressing without any problems. But that, by itself, could become irritating to some guests who want to dine in peace without extra interruption.

dbcurrie at 9:59PM on 08/29/08

vox and db, I actually wrote an email to Phoebe Damrosch and she very kindly answered me. You can read the dialogue on (you guessed it) my blog, http://www.annienewman.typepad.com.

Db, I started my original post on this incident by saying that I was only oing to go so far in understanding the incident from the restaurant's point of view. As a human services professional, I feel odd NOT being empathetic--but honestly, because I trust the people who work for The French Laundry to be professionals at the top of their game, I don't feel I have to factor in points like "his feet must really hurt" or "perhaps there was a communications breakdown."

I don't usually lead a luxurious life, but when I do, I feel that I'm paying money for the training of the people with whom I deal--that they have been trained to handle their problems with no particular help from me. Also, the top dollar which I am paying means that the restaurant can hire more people, keep them on shorter shifts, pay for good benefits, etc.

There's lots of suffering and emotional confusion in restaurant kitchens, and I try to understand my fellow man and not expect him to be a faultless automation. But my expectation of service does go up at TFL. Which is all I've been saying.

annien at 11:21PM on 08/29/08

@annien, while your post about the FL was what prompted my question, my question wasn't meant to be about your incident in particular -- I was curious how far off-menu people are comfortable asking for, what they expect will be accommodated, what is going too far, and how they react when things don't go their way. And I didn't care if they were referring to high-end restaurants or Joe's Diner. Yes, your incident was used as an example a few times, but for the most part, it was a general discussion of the idea, rather than a continuation of your topic.

And personally, I don't really care about the FL in particular. The chance of me ever going there is pretty slim, in part because I doubt I'll have any reason to be in that part of the country.

However, I do work with the public (not in the food business), and I was simply curious about people's expectations when it comes to asking for something extra.

dbcurrie at 12:01AM on 08/30/08

Naturally there are people who will not be empathetic who are sitting at the table. And interestingly enough, the dining table is one place where otherwise "normal" people who do not allow themselves to act in demanding ways, will and do get demanding in ways that can stagger the imagination. For food is such a personal thing and somehow the boundaries slip more easily in terms of expectations.

Not every restaurant could afford to answer people's expectations. That is where the "fine dining" separation comes in - and when "fine dining" is done to perfection nobody should walk out the door at the end of the meal with anything but good to say.

The attitude in the top dining places in the world for those who work there is this, simply: 'If the guest says "jump", you say "how high"?' It's not "work", it is a performance level hit (and when really good, exceeded) each and every time the doors open.

This attitude does not have to appear (and should not appear) as fawning or servitude. It needs to appear like mind-reading.

It does not exist in most places for it is too expensive to train and manage staff (and operational systems) to be able to do this (if they are prone to be able to do it in the first place - most people simply are not . . . they are not able to put themselves in that rather zen-like position this level of service performance requires) so of course, most places will not have it.

Therefore the difference in high-end dining and other sorts.

Now the lower-end variety of dining experience can have this at times and does - but the promise of it is not implicit at any time. One simply is very lucky if one happens to come across it. And those places will do well - very well. Those places, in small towns, are the places that are crowded with customers where the other places are empty or struggling to survive, regardless of the finesse of menu offered. Middle of the road sort of places (which most are, let's face it) in terms of food quality or offerings: this one magical thing can shift the balance between survival or turpitude. And there's a hell of a lot of turpitude in restaurants across America. And a lot of failure and loss. A lot of closings.

Back to the person at the table: I remember a quote from some old classic author-type of letters who said (probably tossing his long locks over his shoulder while posing with his wine glass in hand) "Food is as inseparable from the imagination as sexuality". Yes. And as able to create havoc at any moment, too. Even a Pop-Tart could cause a household war. Which is what makes it so very interesting as a subject. :)

People become unreasonable about it.

And I guess (as with all things) if one can afford to pay to be unreasonable one can get away with it and the deal is a good one for both parties.

But as you noted, this will not and does not and can not happen "everywhere".

foodvox at 10:51AM on 08/30/08

Oh wait a minute. I didn't answer the question posed, did I. And the going back to the TFL thing was because others were doing it too. Sorry for wandering off.