Beyond citing sources: copyright issues?
redhead raised an important point about citations (this was originally going to be a reply, but I realised that it didn't answer anything, but raised another question), but I was wondering about the extent to which it's alright to post recipes on this site.
I've noticed many of the recipes say 'adapted from': Does this mean we need to make a minor tweak, and then cite something as 'adapted from'? I tend to be very precise about the recipes I pass along to others, so I have misgivings about this.
So far, I've simply held off from posting recipes, and have stuck with 'recipe x' from Y's book, 'z'. If the source is not necessarily an easy one to find (e.g. out of print), I feel bad doing this. What are the ground rules for posting recipes, apart from accurately citing the source in full?
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11 Comments:
I always post the recipe excactly as it is printed. If I do change something, I put a notation next to the recipe where I've changed something then state this is where I've tweaked it to suit my tastes. I mean I'm probably not going to change anything to a Thomas Keller recipe but if I did that's what I would do.
evilchefmom at 1:09PM on 02/16/08
As an English teacher, I would have to agree with evilchefmom. It is always wise to give credit where credit is due, even if one is tweaking with the ingredients.
HMcChezz at 2:47PM on 02/16/08
The issue of full citation goes without saying for me; what I'm wondering about is whether it's actually alright to post an entire recipe, or whether this violates copyright restrictions (in most books there is a statement restricting the reproduction of the work's content without the publisher's permission).
mongoose at 3:08PM on 02/16/08
You what your right but I'm not sure what you could do because with the big guys (Keller, ect.) how are you going to get their permission? I know when the Julie/ Julia project was going on Julia Child wasn't very happy but I'm not sure if that was because of the recipes or not. All food blogs would cease to exist if chefs and publishing companies cracked down on this. I 'm sure they look at food blogs as a way of free advertising. I know I want a French Laundry Cookbook after reading French Laundry At Home.
evilchefmom at 3:36PM on 02/16/08
Legally, only the text is copyrighted: you cannot copyright a recipe insofar as it is a group of ingredients + technique.
So if you do copy the recipe exactly as written, word for word, you are in fact infringing the copyright (just as you would if you published a word-for-word copy of a novel).
However, if you use your own words, but describe the same list of ingredients and steps, you are not infringing and you do not need the author/copyright owner's permission.
That is to say, the only "content" protected in the publication is the verbatim, cut-and-paste text.
If I'm not making clear sense let me know and I'll try to be simpler.
renzata at 5:12PM on 02/16/08
The ingredient list isn't copyrighted, but I think the directions might be, because they can be written in different ways.
You do not need to cite a source if you change things, though I think it's good form to mention your sources (should you use them).
KarynMC at 5:42PM on 02/16/08
Once I change the ingredients or any of the technique, its not the orginal recipe. I often will say adapted but if I change 3 ingredients or any major part of the technique I don't feel obliged anymore. Todd Wilbur does a clone cookbook where he actually says in the book this is my clone of XXX (famous restaurant) yet no one has sued him. Why because he did not steal their intellectual property.
I say this often with adaptions, if you make it your own, IT IS your own.
For example when I make the outrageous brownies I use 3 kinds of chocolate chips (dark, milk and semi), no unsweetened chocolate, chambord liquor, organic sugar, real espresso coffee boiling hot and no nuts. Now I have changed the recipe by deleting those ingredients and adding my own; now its Jerzee's adaption of outrageous brownies.
That is all I need to say since I changed more than 3 things and part of the technique, using boiling hot coffee to melt chocolate.
It is by virtue of the fact of those changes my own rendition.
It is not the same published recipe. Giving credit to the original author is a courtesy at that point because virtually everything started out as someone's recipe somewhere. I always tell people my brownies are based on barefoot contessa because I am sharing my source and not being a lessipe. HINT HINT!!
JerzeeTomato at 2:36AM on 02/17/08
I want to thank everybody for their views and comments; this is something I take seriously--in part because I work as a copyeditor--but so many seem so generous about sharing recipes, that I always feel a bit bad when I just say mention the name of the recipe and the source, and stop at that.
mongoose at 4:02AM on 02/17/08
This is exactly why I don't write out the recipe in my blog. I provide the inks or cite books for the recipes, with the exception of Cook's Illustrated. Because there is a fee for the website, I do not publish their recipe links. I do cite them as a source.
I work in advertising and the threat of copyright infringement scares me all the time.
http://nujoikitchendiary.blogspot.com/
NuJoi at 6:39AM on 02/17/08
As Jerzee noted, once something in a recipe is definitely changed by the cook, the recipe is not the same. And as she said, most new recipes start from older recipes, whether that recipe is in a currently available or popular cookbook or not.
Sometimes cookbook authors are honest about this and note what I term the inspiration for the recipes they develop and publish. Sometimes they are not. I find that cookbook authors are more often specifically honest in this way than chefs who publish their recipes. That may be a function of the demand of the marketplace, though - as readers of chefs think of them in a certain way that often begs the diva act, the creative genius, the one who starts from nothing and makes a miracle, in return. It seems to fulfill some need in the reader.
What is important in terms of copyright law is that the recipe not be written the same way. The ingredients can be exactly the same, the techniques exactly the same, but the wording is what the copyright embraces.
As there are any number of forms to write a recipe in, the wording is quite easily redone in most any recipe to avoid invoking the law. It would seem that anyone who has enjoyed a recipe provided by someone else would be more than pleased to pass on the source information along with the recipe itself - the only reason I can think of for not doing this would either be laziness or a wish to look larger than one actually was.
After the initial simple re-write, a notation of "adapted from so-and-so in such-and-such book" is excellent manners. And not to forget - authors want to sell books. This is one way to help them. If someone likes the adapted recipe they see, they may develop an interest in buying the original authors' books. Good for everyone and excellent karma for the one who gave credit where credit was due. :)
Karen Resta at 10:28AM on 02/17/08
I will give you an examples of what I call sharing recipes and the recipe as it is written. Our own Dorie Greenspan has in her book a cake which is a published recipe by her friend Nick Malgieri she credits him and then publishes the recipe. In Nick's book he publishes Dorie's recipe (can't recall which one right now). David Lebovitz talks about both in his blog. They share and give credit. I love that Dorie often shares her recipes with us and it is when I tried a few of them that I researched her books and found the connection between her and my all time fav baker Nick Malgieri.
The baking community is real friendly place.
Many bloggers often put the recipes in their blog and they follow the http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc/3.0/ standard and I think that is sufficient. A recipe is more than a bunch of words, it's in the way that you use it. Take a look at the creative commons its a good concept and fair to everyone concerned.
If you are developing recipes for profit my suggestion to you is do not share anything till after you are published and then you do not have to worry at all. I think other cookbook authors will agree. Me, I share recipes and technique where and when I can.
JerzeeTomato at 1:11PM on 02/17/08