Should the Health Department Crack Down on Raw Eggs in Cocktails?
The announcement came, as these things do nowadays, via Facebook. "So Pegu received a visit from the Health Dept. tonight," wrote Audrey Saunders, co-owner of Pegu Club in New York City and the recently opened The Tar Pit in Los Angeles.
Everything was in order, Saunders wrote in her Tuesday night post, until the inspector looked at the menu and took issue with one drink's list of ingredients. "[She] told us that...even with the warning we have printed on our menu about raw eggs, using raw eggs is a violation...and that we have to switch to pasteurized eggs in our cocktails."
Concerns about the hazards of consuming raw eggs are nothing new, nor are articles about their use in many classic cocktails; I wrote about the issue in 2007, as did Jason Wilson of the Washington Post.
But now, thanks to the NYC Health Department, the question of whether it's advisable, or even legal, to serve raw eggs or egg whites to a customer is being pushed into the spotlight.
Royal Diamond Fizz. "Royal" because it has the entire egg. It'd be "silver" if it were just the egg white and "golden" if just the yolk. [Flickr: Vidiot]
The health department's choice to target Pegu Club may prove problematic. Considered one of the pioneering bars in the cocktail renaissance, not to mention Saunders is one of the more talented and influential individuals in the spirits industry.
Then there are the other questions. Does this mean the health department will begin targeting restaurants that serve raw eggs in a Caesar salad? Or a house-made mayonnaise or steak tartare?
It also questions the impact of high-proof spirits on any harmful bacteria that may be present in the egg. Saunders asserts that the inspector failed to even cite a specific law or rule that forbids the use of raw eggs.
It's not the first time the health department has created waves in the city's bars. In 2007, the New York Times reported that the department mandated that bartenders wear plastic gloves or use tongs when inserting a lime wedge in a bottle of Mexican beer, a move that was widely mocked and universally ignored.
Pegu Club is hardly alone—it's a safe bet that scores of restaurants and bars in the city and many more across the country use raw eggs in some capacity, often listing a warning on the menu regarding any potential hazards.
And without totally dismissing the risks, through proper storage and safe handling the already small danger (the Nation's Restaurant News blog cites a figure that one egg in 20,000 contains salmonella) can be all but eliminated.
This issue will no doubt play out in the coming weeks, but let's hear your thoughts.
As long as the restaurant or bar is notifying customers that a particular dish or drink contains raw eggs, should customers be allowed to decide for themselves whether or not to take the risk, much as they do when ordering raw oysters or sushi? Or is the small risk of salmonella enough to require a rule that partially or completely forbids the use of raw eggs?
Related
Do You Ever Eat Raw Eggs?
Serious Cocktails: Is the Customer Always Right?
Serious Cocktails: Adding Spice to Your Drinks
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41 Comments:
Let the customer choose (are you listening FDA?!). It would be my own fault if I get some kind of food-borne issue after eating a raw egg, or a rare steak, or any other sketchy (read delicious) food.
Mandyhello at 7:36PM on 01/20/10
Absolutely post a warning (for those who might somehow be unaware that raw foods pose a risk), and ensure that restaurants are behaving responsibly towards risky ingredients (i.e. not serving chicken tartare, or that their raw ingredients are stored and handled properly), and from there, let people judge their own risks.
dannybates at 7:44PM on 01/20/10
If they ban the raw egg in a drink then they should ban hollandaise. Warm egg yolks sitting at room temperature for hours in a hot kitchen. The health department should worry about more important things. Try kitchen cleanliness, food storage and handling practices. If those are fine then who cares about the raw egg in a drink.
srfchf at 8:08PM on 01/20/10
Ridiculous. There's no way this is being consistently applied.
If they persist, Audrey could pasteurize the eggs herself in a sous vide bath at 135° for a couple of hours and then chill them down. They'll take a bit more time and effort to froth, but they'll work.
millions at 8:23PM on 01/20/10
If I want to open a restaurant that serves raw eggs to smokers who want to bring their dog, I should be allowed. Too many rules and laws as is
nique jim at 8:28PM on 01/20/10
a thousand times NO. besides, i'd like to see some hard data on this widespread epidemic of people dying from eating raw eggs. there sure is a VERY thorough cover-up going on, because you sure don't see the list of the dead in the newspapers or hear about it on the radio, or see them online. what a bunch of FUD by the health dept. let the people decide!
franko at 8:30PM on 01/20/10
G-ddammit NY, lighten up!!!
Just try and take my flip away from me. I dare you. (And my salt, for that matter).
Perhaps in the next decade, restaurants that serve egg drinks and french fries cooked in trans fats and coated in salt will be what speakeasies were in the 20's. Every restaurant will keep it's own flock of underground chickens to supply them with eggs once the city realizes that NO egg is safe and outright bans them.
J. Kenji Lopez-Alt at 8:32PM on 01/20/10
Absolutely I should be able to decide what I want to eat. If a restaurant wants to offer me a raw egg and I choose to eat it, I should be held liable. Here in MA, every restaurant offering seafood, meat or eggs must include a disclaimer. I should hope it's already public knowledge but begrudgingly I doubt it is. Anyhow, if I want to order a salad with raw eggs in the dressing and Mr Chocula wants his steak rare and we also order some oysters, we're assuming the (very negligible) risk.
And if my dream ever comes true and I own the pub we so desire, I will have (egads) raw foods on the menu.
countchocula at 8:38PM on 01/20/10
If you aren't smart enough to know the risks of raw eggs, you should be eliminated from the gene pool anyway...
Truff at 8:44PM on 01/20/10
well, this is nothing new, really...in all honesty, most restaurants are moving toward pasteurized eggs anyway, due largely to keeping issues--pasteurized eggs have a longer shelf life than raw eggs, and, again, are much safer.
that being said, i wonder what they think of stuff like mayonnaise or aioli, or caesar dressing.
Down here, the rule generally is that it can be served, but customers have to be advised that there's raw egg in their food and all that that implies...but the fault is still on the restaurant should hijinks ensue.
rasellers0 at 9:08PM on 01/20/10
Definitely notify the customer that raw eggs are used in food and let the customer decide! Here in New Jersey we had the runny egg yolk ban, which ended up dying!
I am sick of the State not only separating you from your money but then having the temerity to squander said money on enforcement of such picayune rules! The State is not my mother or father - get off my back and go work at reducing taxes instead.
As the inspectors can add this one to their list, that sounds like a fine plan!
jeromesmom at 9:46PM on 01/20/10
No way. I used to get milkshakes with a raw egg in them and they were fantastic! Who is going to order a raw egg that is worried about food safety?
Montana Eats at 10:10PM on 01/20/10
What's wrong, exactly, with pasteurized shell eggs? I've been eating them for a few weeks now and they're perfectly fine so far as I can tell.
ccbweb at 10:19PM on 01/20/10
Keep Obama out of my cocktail hour.
If you let him rule your happy hour what next ;telling me what to eat at Mc Donalds ......oh yeah they already did that!
Some states cant have Happy Hours ;that's sad,I'll have another barkeep.
jfitz at 5:39AM on 01/21/10
I may take the risk at home now and then and dip my finger in the raw cake batter or dare to make an impromptu Caesar dressing, but if I order a fancy cocktail involving a raw egg in an upscale bar that charges me ten bucks or so for that drink, I would expect them to be using pasteurized eggs. Pasteurized eggs are readily available, especially to bars/restaurants, and don't cost all that much more. And considering the potential liability (supposedly "legal" waiver written on the menu or not) if the bar if someone gets sick, any smart bar owner would already be using pasteurized eggs.
Lorenzo at 8:11AM on 01/21/10
I'll join most of peanut gallery. If I'm drinking alcohol then I'm a big boy and can decide if I am willing to take the risk of including raw egg. If I'm paying for an upscale cocktail they damn well better use raw eggs from pastured chickens not pasteurized eggs from caged chickens.
christopher at 8:58AM on 01/21/10
It's common for those who have never experienced the effects of Salmonella to be cavalier about it. Those who have are often more cautious. In 2007, a reporter from the LA Times described his experiences following an infection with Salmonella traced to undercooked eggs. Big egg companies are doing a better job in recent years of keeping Salmonella out of raw eggs, but to risks are still meaningful when viewed at the national level. The risks are especially severe for young children, the elderly, and people who already have other illnesses - you know, many of the people we love.
That said, this sounds like an over-reaching inspector. The federal model food code allows restaurants to serve raw or undercooked eggs, as long as the restaurant discloses to presence of raw eggs to the customer and reminds them of the risks. The disclosure and reminder typically need to appear on the menu.
sfullers at 9:08AM on 01/21/10
Is the raw egg mixed with the drink? I'm not familiar with such cocktails. But if it's mixed, the alcohol is going to kill the salmonella, isn't it? There's no point in banning raw eggs in drinks if you're not banning eggs over easy - and we know how well that goes over.
But since pasteurized eggs are available, why not protect your business by using them? Many years ago someone got salmonella in the Burlington area and it was at first traced to pickled eggs served at the bar. Severely hurt my eggman's business. Health dept later determined it wasn't the pickled eggs, but how big do you suppose that retraction was in the paper? On the other hand, I have not seen pasteurized eggs here.
Just a general gripe here that we insanely overprotect for some things, and continue to accept many thousands of deaths each year from very preventable diseases and accidents. (texting while driving is suddenly making the daytime roads riskier).
lemonfair at 9:17AM on 01/21/10
@jfitz - can you please explain exactly what the hell Obama has to do with this? Last time I checked, NYC has had sixteen years of republican mayors. You teabagging imbecile.
Now, back to the grownups' discussion: this is another example of over reaching and over zealous health code enforcement. I eat raw quail egg yolk on sushi all the time. Humans have been eating raw eggs for millions of years, long before pasteurization, refrigeration, and the DOH. Also, these cocktails contain a pretty hefty dose of alcohol. I find this outrageous.
simon at 9:23AM on 01/21/10
The customer should most certainly have the right to choose. Just as they have the right to order a steak rare
madfishgrill at 9:28AM on 01/21/10
@lemonfair - The alcohol in a cocktail will NOT kill bacteria. You need 70% alcohol to kill bacteria/viruses so unless you're drinking Bacardi 151, your drink isn't going to kill salmonella.
That being said, this inspector went a little too far - raw eggs ARE allowed, you just have to properly warn customers. We here may know the risks associated with them, but there are plenty of people out there who have no idea.
charm city cupcake at 9:33AM on 01/21/10
In my culinary experience, raw eggs never hurt anyone. I have tasted many pre-cooked foods such as potato gnocchi dough, egg nog, cake batter, etc. - In the past, I even drank raw eggs for bodybuilding. I don't think that consuming raw eggs is any more controversial than eating sushi/sashimi.
On the other hand, I have noticed Salmonella issues associated with raw poultry meat and its drippings. If they were putting this in my cocktail, I would agree to a ban.
resolutejc at 10:06AM on 01/21/10
Thank you, simon--you got in there ahead of me. Gaaaa! I am pretty intolerant of willful ignorance...But it's my only prejudice.
BobbieAnne at 10:21AM on 01/21/10
Although I personally wouldn't touch any raw/near raw food or drink in a restaurant (ummm.. Hello I'm paying you money to do something good TO the food! and fyi ... i wouldn't dare touch sushi), I say keep it on the menu. If you want to play Russian roulette and if you get seriously sick or die from it, guess you've learned your lesson. It would help to clean the human gene pool a bit.
MissBrownEyes at 10:25AM on 01/21/10
@simon: I don't know if quail are raised under the same mass-production conditions as chickens, which is what I understand leads to contamination of chicken eggs. I have long suspected that quail are raised in a more traditional manner than chickens are these days and that quail eggs are therefore less likely to carry salmonella. But I could be mistaken.
Lorenzo at 10:27AM on 01/21/10
@ Lorenzo - I doubt it. In a capiltalist society, you cut costs by any means necessary, whether you're raising quails or chickens. Anyway, other instances of consumption of raw hens eggs include on Carbonara pasta and as mentioned above, in various tartare preparations, in aioli and other egg based sauces, in sabayon creams...
I'm all for regulation and governmental health agencies, but there needs to be a more intelligent approach than just a knee jerk "ban it if there is any risk, however remote." This strikes me as having more to do with CYA prevention of litigation than it is about a real public health issue.
simon at 10:55AM on 01/21/10
I am well into middle age, and I have never yet known a person who had a diagnosed or even suspected case of salmonella, let alone a case that was due to eating raw eggs. Yet most people I know will eat raw cookie dough and cake batter. I'm not thrilled with the idea of raw eggs in drinks just because it sounds icky, but I have to admit that when we used to make orange julius drinks, they were better with a raw egg included -- it somehow cut the bitterness of the o.j. and made it smoother.
Years ago, the Frugal Gourmet (he had a cooking show on PBS) said that there had not been a documented case of salmonella due to raw eggs west of the Mississippi River in more than 25 years. I've always wondered if that was true.
Kaycee at 11:11AM on 01/21/10
@simon: Don't get me wrong--I don't think it's the government's business to regulate this. I just think that restaurateurs who want to avoid getting sued if someone contracts salmonella might think it prudent to use pasteurized eggs, at least in cocktails, tartare and sauces where the temp never reaches the safety zone (not sure what temp it reaches in Carbonara). And if I were eating any of those things in an upscale restaurant in the US, where we've had quite a few salmonella scares, I would assume that the restaurant is taking precautions.
As for the question of whether quail eggs are as prone to carrying salmonella as chicken eggs, I'd still like to see some information. Quail egg production in this country is not nearly as huge as chicken egg production, so it sure seems to me like quail egg producers might be better able to control the kinds of conditions that encourage salmonella.
Lorenzo at 12:21PM on 01/21/10
Who knows, but I sure love em! And in France, carbonara is served with an additional whole raw egg yolk nestled into the top of the mound of pasta which already is generously sauced, for you to mix in. I LOVE it. I would have to go ballistic if anyone tried to take that away from me :)
simon at 12:31PM on 01/21/10
Tort Reform now! Down with the Nanny State!
Lobelia von Mauvaise at 1:09PM on 01/21/10
As a lover of eggs in all forms, especially raw (in my ramen!), put a warning on the menu and let the customer decide! The Health Dpt is doing its job, but they need to relax.
tofunator at 1:22PM on 01/21/10
I've had a run-in with salmonella thanks to undercooked chicken once... Yeah, not pleasant. But that said, if the restaurant puts it on the menu? You've been informed, so make your decision accordingly.
(I still love the family eggnog every Christmas, raw eggs or not -- and I'm fearless when enjoying fresh sushi.)
bansidhe at 1:37PM on 01/21/10
This has some good information about egg safety, including the fact that
"Not all SE outbreaks are due to eggs; however, if the food source is found to be a mixed food item that includes eggs, the outbreak is recorded as egg associated."
http://www.eggsafety.org/Salmonella%20Enteritidis%20update%202009.pdf
I personally eat "undercooked" eggs all the time - my scrambled eggs are done once they've reached custard consistency, I make tamago gohan for breakfast (raw egg w/ cooked hot rice), my favorite chocolate mousse contains uncooked whites and yolks, and I make mayonnaise and dressing all the time with unpasteurized eggs. Granted, I know where my eggs come from, and I would never do the same with standard store-bought eggs. I'm not saying I won't ever have an issue with salmonella from an egg, but it's much more likely this day in age to have an issue with salmonella coming from vegetables that are mass farmed.
devlyn at 2:40PM on 01/21/10
Until this post, I had no idea that raw eggs were ever put in cocktails. Then I did a google and found this list that I will be drinking from shortly:
http://www.chow.com/stories/11473
I am sorely disappointed in any effort to make and enforce a rule this stupid. There are already unenforced sanitation laws in place now that should take care of any egg sanitation issues.
And of course if you cleaned up the chicken farms where these eggs came from in the first place you'd eliminate the most common source of salmonella. Of course those people have fuller wallets to line the pockets of officials with than your friendly neighborhood cocktail bar.
joeqboo at 2:54PM on 01/21/10
"it's much more likely this day in age to have an issue with salmonella coming from vegetables that are mass farmed."
EXCELLENT point. Maybe the DOH should ban salads? We would all be better off for sure.
simon at 3:09PM on 01/21/10
I agree joeqboo. I'd love for government organizations remove all the close ties they now have with all the large conglomerates (be it agricultural or financial)
winternutt at 5:35PM on 01/21/10
According to a NYC chef I know, it is already against health codes to use raw eggs in mayo... so I assume it is for all the other applications mentioned above.
spnder at 12:50AM on 01/22/10
I'm a NYC chef, and to my knowledge it's impossible NOT to use raw egg yolks in mayo. You certainly don't use cooked yolks.
FYI - The salt, acid and constant whisking denatures the proteins and essentially cooks it anyway.
resolutejc at 8:23AM on 01/22/10
@resolutejc - yes, it "cooks" the egg proteins, but doesn't kill the bacteria, should they happen to be present. Only heat, antibiotics or harsh chemicals do that. None of which you want in your mayo :)
simon at 11:54AM on 01/22/10
No one should try to stand between me and My Ramos Gin Fizz. This would never fly in New Orleans. There would be riots.
NOLA_Pam at 1:58PM on 01/22/10
I'm still unclear as to what's wrong with pasteurized shell eggs. I've made various sauces, egg nog, eggs of all varieties of preparation and found them to be as tasty as any egg from a supermarket. (They're not as good as the farm fresh ones we're able to get; but then neither are the ones from the supermarket or restaurant suppliers.) If a restaurant is using fresh eggs from an identifiable farm then I can understand not wanting to switch (or at least I'll concede the argument) but if they're using regular old eggs then why not get pasteurized shell eggs?
ccbweb at 5:02PM on 01/22/10