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I have a friend who, for a variety of religious/cultural/medical reasons combined, is vegan. She is probably one of the biggest foodies I have ever met. She always knows what is in season and where to get it. When favourites like dragonfruit are available she is giddy with excitement.

Meat does not a foodie make.

I agree that vegan cooking is a great gateway to learning about new foods and techniques. I just recently picked up a few vegan cookbooks so I could get a better feel for how to prepare and use various soy products and learn new ways to incorporate grains that I don't use as much of (lentils, barley, quinoa) into my everyday cooking.

That said, I think that the problem many people have with vegans is that there's a small but vocal portion of the vegan population who view their personal life choice as a moral obligation that everybody should feel compelled towards. In this way, vegan hate is a lot like people's disdain for extreme conservatives or liberals or religious zealots. Obviously, most vegans are fine people who realize that they choose to live in a way that isn't for everybody, but the people we hear the most from are the ones on the extremes, and they're as annoying and upsetting as extremists of any other sort.

Either that, or we're jealous of the vegan-imbued super powers. (2 points to anybody who gets the reference).

Thanks, AK! I love the Spy vs. Spy illustration, and the fact that I now have my own tag.

@jwatz - I do agree that there are some vegans that make it hard for the rest of us - you have no idea how many people notice that I'm not eating meat and immediately start trying to talk to me about PETA (an organization that I, along with many other vegans and vegetarians, strongly disagree with). But I think it's important to give people the benefit of the doubt, instead of immediately assuming that they hold specific viewpoints. A conversation beforehand never hurts anyone - and I do mean an honest, open discourse - not a barbed, dismissive attempt to confirm original prejudices.

I don't know about super powers, but I can report that I've yet to ascend to the fifth level of veganism (the cherries I'm snacking on right now *are* casting shadows).

sailordave- it is sad to me that this piece of writing ended with can't we all just get along and you basically answered hell no. Christian bands are something that only Christians listen to. You won't see someone who enjoys all types of music at a Christian show. Everyone eats vegetables and vegans like food from all over the world.

Veganism is inclusive to everyone. I think a more accurate analogy would be to compare omnivore to tribal drumming (it is the first kind of music that the world was interested in, influenced every kind of eating and is still popular) and veganism is more like Experimental Music, some of is great some is terrible, some of it is commercial and some of it is not but it is new and constantly changing. More people are becoming vegan all the time. Not all of them are even in it for animal rights a lot of people come to it for health or environmental reasons.

Quick to point the finger there Producestories.

I am dealing with this very situation right now in a blogging group I belong to. Every month I see the vegetarian, vegan, celiac, etc, and etc hack apart wonderfully balanced recipes. Never will they know what the recipe was actually supposed to taste like. Now there is a vegan recipe posted with NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS allowed. Well huh? So subbing soy whatever is ok but adding in some butter is now not OK.

As a die hard hunter, gatherer, and farmer, it gets on my last nerve to have someone tell me what I can't use in my cooking. You choose not to eat animal products, good for you. I will be butchering a moose hopefully this weekend.

As a professional chef who has worked in both steak houses & natural organic style restaurants with a veggie and vegan menu as long as my arm all I can say is that both dietary paths gave merits and problems. The problems being that both meat eaters and vegans miss out on fantastic cuisine. I have heard many sides to the feud between foodies and the way I see it, if meat doesn't suddenly dry up, the meat eaters should care less about what is on someone else plate... And of course it works the other way around.

My grandmother is a vegitarian, and for 20 years if my life she made my brother, my grandfather, and myself the tastiest, meatiest, most amazing chili I've ever had. 2 years ago she sat down and joined us in a bowl. When I objected to her eating meat she laughed and told us that for the last 20 years there had never been any meat in it.... Take that how you will.

Wow, I have a lot to say on this topic;

I was raised vegetarian, though now I tell my friends that I "place no restrictions on my dietary intake." I did not have a bite of meat, save an errant slice of pepperoni, until I was 21. Frankly, I just got tired of saying "no," to my friends and relatives when they offered me a slice of homemade meatloaf or chicken soup or a shepherd's pie. I don't buy meat when I go to the market, and I don't order meat when I'm out to dinner, but I'm not going to say I won't eat it outright. I respect the choice to go vegan, or vegetarian, or pescetarian, and I understand how human society could benefit from a non-meat eating culture, but I love the smile my grandma gets when she sees that I'm enjoying the turkey.

For what it's worth though, I'm on the vegan's side. I think they're right, and it pisses me off to see meat-eaters belittle them. I've heard everything they have to say. I spent 12 years in public school, and the fact that I was a vegetarian did not last long. But the great thing is, I've seen friends (many of them actually) of me, who used to joke and rib me about not being able to enjoy a hot dog convert to some form of vegetarian, or semi-vegetarian diet since high school. It just takes time to accept and comprehend.

@climbhighak
"I am dealing with this very situation right now in a blogging group I belong to. Every month I see the vegetarian, vegan, celiac, etc, and etc hack apart wonderfully balanced recipes. Never will they know what the recipe was actually supposed to taste like. Now there is a vegan recipe posted with NO ANIMAL PRODUCTS allowed. Well huh? So subbing soy whatever is ok but adding in some butter is now not OK."

Putting aside the fact that I disagree with you about the vegetarian/vegan "hacking" at recipes, but you most certainly should not put celiacs in that catagory. Celiac disease is a serious medical condition, and they need to adapt recipes so they can be healthy.

Speaking of leaving name-calling to sports fans, can we please stop saying "foodie"?

You don't have to love or eat every food imaginable to say that you love food. Everyone I know -- every single person -- has certain foods that they won't eat. Some people don't like spicy foods. Fine. Some people don't like seafood. Or certain vegetables. Or whole families of vegetables. Or certain textures. Or certain ethnic foods. Or particular spices.

Someone who decides to avoid animal products is no different than someone who has an aversion to any category of food. They can still love all other foods.

I fail to see why people get so upset about what other people choose to eat or not eat. Big deal. Eat what you want, let me eat what I want, and leave it at that.

Oh, and I'm a meat-eater.

@KarynMC, being stereotyped sucks, that's for sure.

@producestories, it's unfortunate that people pick at your diet, but it's also necessary to realize that, at least in the western European tradition in which most of us likely come from, veganism is still a fairly novel concept. Most people simply don't understand what a proper vegan diet looks like. The foods we most closely identify with culturally nearly all involve animal product, and not partaking just doesn't seem right (and tofurkeys, notdogs, and other common vegan knock-offs are mostly unappetizing).

Moreover, in many ways, eating a fulfilling vegan diet is also a bit of a luxury (again, in the Western European tradition). At least in the beginning phases, it requires more time as you pay more attention to the ingredients in what you're buying and build up a new culinary repertoire. It makes it harder to take advantage of common conveniences (i.e. fast food) and sometimes requires you to snub others. For better or for worse, lots of people just don't care enough about what they eat for it to be worth the effort, and that makes it hard to see how it could be worthwhile for others.

That doesn't make the skepticism or vitriol acceptable. Obviously, it's no more acceptable for we non-vegans to harass you vegans than it is for you to harass us; but it's important to remember that history is a sequence of the new overcoming and proving itself to the established, not the established bending over to make way for the new. As more people start choosing vegetarian/veganism and cultural awareness spreads, hopefully the whole debate will die down.

That's the difference between someone saying "I don't like cauliflower", or "I eat less meat" and "I will never allow any animal product to knowingly pass my lips".

Imagine a food critic who would only taste vegan dishes. Their range of reviews would be quite narrow in most places in this world.

@peekpoke -- so what? Why would a vegan WANT to be a mainstream food critic?

Someone who kept strictly kosher also wouldn't be able to be a mainstream food critic. Should he/she abandon religion because one type of job isn't possible?

I would just like to thank @KarynMC for such an eloquent post and Serious Eats for publishing it. To be honest, when I first came to SE I considered leaving the site because there were so many belittling comments about vegetarians. Sometimes, quite randomly in a post that had nothing to do with vegetarianism people would make comments about intolerant vegans, even though no vegans had even said anything!

For those who say the two are mutually exclusive, because vegetarianism and veganism is exclusionary, I would also like to add that no one appreciates every food with equal fervor. Many omnivorous foodies don't like desserts (and still review restaurants!), many don't drink, don't like offal, don't eat honey (Ruth Reichel ;), or prefer certain cuisines over others.

For those who are uncomfortable with vegetarianism, the best thing to do is change the subject. I've never explained my food choices in public during dinner out of politeness, unless challenged. When offered something I don't eat, I say no thank you. If asked, I say why--I don't eat meat. I only 'explain' why I am a vegetarian if challenged, but if the omnivore agrees to just let my food choice pass, I leave it at that and move on.

And I'm afraid I must add my voice in agreement regarding preachiness--people have tried to convert me many, many times, including sneaking meat into my food. (Note to stepmother: boxed chicken stock in white rice, to my knowledge has never made anyone 'go back' to eating meat). I have never seen a vegetarian preach and try to convert others, although I know people insist it goes on.

I love love love veggies. I also love love love meat and dairy. I also eat pork. So if you are hard core against animal protein or hard core kosher you and I will never agree. Eat what you like as is your right and stay out of my food. If you are coming to my home let me know and I will make an effort to accommdate you. However if your food restrictions are really very restrictive I usually don't even bother.
I also want to congratulate our KarynMC for the feature I think all SE regulars should write one. I keep waiting for an idea to hit me so I can write one.

I have many friends who are vegetarian or vegan. And they all love food.

They just don't consider things with faces or of animals to be food.

Just like some of us carnivores would not consider certain animals (dogs?) to be food.

I agree with bauwau2u- lay off the v's.

@jwalz- Speaking generally about European culture, a diet consisting of meat at almost every meal is just as new as vegetarianism. Until factory farms, most of us subsisted off of grains and some dairy. Blood and organs would supplement our bread occasionally, but if you weren't upper class you most likely were not eating steaks (hence meat pies, blood pudding, sausage, and other ingenious and delicious food inventions).

I had a vegeterian as a roommate once, and I had visions of learning all these great new ways to expand my vegetable repertoire. You see, I'm an unapologetic omnivore that always leaned towards the carni- side of the omni- spectrum and wanted to change that.

Since she was just an acquaintance at the beginning, I didn't realize that she wasn't much of a foodie even though she claimed that she was. The extent of her repertoire was usually some kind of processed food product like a frozen faux meat, or at best she would cook some beans.

I was disappointed that I couldn't get a better introduction to vegetarianism, but I'll keep trying on my own to learn to cook more vegetables.

@mildlyinterested Fine, then. Substitute "post WW2 middle-class American" for Western European. I figured somebody would call me out on that after I posted it, anyway. :P In any case, it doesn't make much difference to the argument I'm making, which isn't about the relative value of a vegetarian diet, but why most people don't understand/approve of it. And, honestly, it almost makes the point clearer.

If regular meat consumption has, in the past, been a luxury, then it makes sense that we would still be culturally enamored of the wide-spread ability to do so. People see vegetarianism - a diet that forsakes this now ready available luxury - as being akin to taking a vow of poverty. It's just not something that makes sense to most people, even if the people who choose to do it are ultimately happy with the choice.

I want to firmly note that I side with the camp that believe that vegetarians/vegans can love food as much as anybody else and are in no way impoverished, despite the analogy I used. I know far too many vegans to have any instinct towards the opposite. People who disagree just lack proper exposure.

@acroninj as a saxophonist, I'm offended that you include us in the brass section. :)

One that I would like to add is that many vegans and vegetarians find themselves expanding their horizons in terms of food once they stop eating meat and other animal products.

For me, even though I considered myself willing to try everything and interested in trying new restaurants and new types of cuisines, it wasn't until I went vegan that I realized that there was a lot I hadn't tried. There are wonderful vegetarian and vegan restaurants that I had never been to and there were many ethnic restaurants that I didn't seek out. Ethiopian, Ghanian, Burmese, Malaysian, Nepalese and other ethnic restaurants are great for vegans but not always sought out until you find yourself looking for options.

Also, vegans tend to have many tales of non-vegans being unwilling to try vegan food. If something is labeled vegan, many people would be wary of it for some strange reason. While on the other hand if people don't know it is vegan, they happily eat it and may even comment that the food is really good. I had my own experience with a dessert I bought at a vegan restaurant and I offered a piece to a family member. The dessert happened to be my family member's absolute favorite dessert. The family member didn't want to try the dessert because it was vegan and even said "I would be able to taste the tofu". There was no tofu in the dessert.

Lastly, I stopped liking the taste of meat which is the initial reason I started down the veg road. I don't think I'm missing anything by not eating meat or animal products. I think it is possible for non-vegs to miss out on some really good food because of a reliance on meat and animal products but really that is their choice. I enjoy cooking good food, I enjoy eating out at good restaurants and I just enjoy food.

I don’t think the animosity from meat eaters towards vegetarians/vegans has anything to do with what they like to eat or whether they can be considered foodies (digression: I agree with Rocquie, I loathe the term). It has to do with morality.

As I see it, there are three main reasons why people become vegans/vegetarians
Animal rights
Environmental reasons
Health reasons

Most meat eaters assume the first so let’s focus on that. If I do not eat meat because I believe it is morally wrong to kill animals for food then I am making a moral decision about other people’s behavior. It does not matter if I dress up in a cow suit and harass schoolchildren or whether only my friends know of my vegetarianism. If that is what I believe, then I must also believe that all meat eaters are engaging in immoral behavior.

This article and the comments miss the point by focusing on likes and dislikes. It has nothing to do with liking or disliking meat. It has to do with morality. With that in mind, it is not surprising that some meat eaters take offense at the moral judgment in any discussion of veganism/vegetarianism. I would like the interaction to homosexuals (perhaps bisexuals would be a more apt comparison) discussing sexuality with fundamentalist Christians. Viewed in that light, it is not surprising that the comment sections are filled with vitriol.

Can meater eaters and vegans/vegetarians coexist without such unconstructive behavior? I think it is unlikely since there are always a few people who are quick to take offense and let the rest of the world/internet know.

@BerkelMan, I think that you're right and that the sense of being judged does play a certain role in things (even if it's not active for most people), but I don't think it has a good reason to. I just recently tried to convince a good friend's fiance of this notion when she started considering veganism and he, lacking the same moral convictions, wasn't being terribly supportive. Warning: mild relativism ahead.

First of all, whether you like it or not, moral decisions are ultimately personal decisions. Even if we can all agree about what is and is not immoral (which we never will), we're not likely to agree what the proper response to immorality is. We need to decide for ourselves the reaction that will allow us to sleep easily at night. Some people see the horrors of crime or poverty or whatever else and devote themselves to stopping it. Most of us don't. Do you feel judged every time you talk with a cop? Somebody who volunteers at a soup kitchen?

Meat eating is, obviously, a more controversial issue in that there isn't consensus as to whether or not it's wrong or what makes it wrong if it is (is it the treatment of the animals that we eat? is it the eating of animals in general?). In any case, our reactions to it reflect the extent to which the issue weighs, personally, on us. If you can eat meat, knowing full well how the animals were treated, without feeling the slightest twinge of guilt, that doesn't make you morally inferior to the person who refuses to eat anything that had its source in a being with a face. It just means that your moral compasses are aligned differently.

We can't all worry about every potential evil in the world; and odds are there are issues that you care about that they don't, too (copyright law in the digital age, as a personal example). If you honestly feel judged just by being around vegans, it's probably because you recognize some truth in their convictions and feel bad for not responding to them.

Now, if you feel like there needs to be a single right and wrong in all situations (and that your convictions are automatically the right ones), then, obviously, you won't be convinced by this argument (as my friend's fiance wasn't). It's worth considering, though.

Omnivores are the only true foodies. You wouldn't consider someone a foodie who doesn't eat vegetables.

@ ankk1

Of course there are. Many people can love someone even when they think the other person is doing something wrong and many people can love someone knowing that the other person does not approve of their behavior. However, some can not. Think of all the families that are broken apart by the inability to forgive or ignore.

In any case, we are talking about something quite different – comment sections. The interpersonal bonds there are a bit weaker than in families or friendships and so it is not surprising that some will lash out. Discussions of veganism and vegetarianism do not bother me (unless excessively strident and moralizing), but I can understand how they could bother some other people.

However, I would reiterate that the fact the they are vegetarians/vegans is in itself a judgment whether they choose to vocalize it further or not.

I am not saying that many vegetarians/vegans and meateaters cannot coexist – merely that not all can.

@ JWalz – I’m not bothered by veganism/vegetarianism, but I understand why some people are.

@ KarynMC – My point is that it does not matter whether the person is actively judging someone else. By becoming a vegan, vegetarian, pacificist etc, you have said that you consider some behavior to be unethical/immoral. If a family member engages in that behavior how can you consider it to be ethical? However, you are right that most vegetarians do not condemn their friends and family members. There is a difference between believing a person’s action is immoral and believing that the person is immoral. However, and this is the problem, some people believe that there is no difference. That is what causes the comment chaos.

i don't think i could ever become a vegetarian/vegan, but i did have a cookie from a vegan bakery in dc (sticky fingers) and it was freaking good. they cheated a little and put himalayan pink rock salt, but it was probably the tastiest cookie i've ever had. i couldn't even tell it was devoid of eggs or butter.

“So subbing soy whatever is ok but adding in some butter is now not OK.
As a die hard hunter, gatherer, and farmer, it gets on my last nerve to have someone tell me what I can't use in my cooking. You choose not to eat animal products, good for you.”

@ climbhighak- Nobody’s telling you what you can and can’t eat. Why would vegan recipes get on your nerves?

“Imagine a food critic who would only taste vegan dishes. Their range of reviews would be quite narrow in most places in this world.”

@ peekpoke - Imagine a meat eater who doesn’t like broccoli, beets, mushroom, sweetbreads or oysters. We just had a talk discussion about food quirks and foods people can’t/won’t eat. Doesn’t just apply to vegans. (Just sayin’)

Why can’t you all be happy with your choices and stop judging other people’s?
There is no “one size fits all” in the culinary world. And why should there be?

I love food. I love eating. I look cooking. I'm vegetarian. No one can tell me that I don't love those things.

+2 for @dbcurrie's "I fail to see why people get so upset about what other people choose to eat or not eat. Big deal. Eat what you want, let me eat what I want, and leave it at that."

@KarynMC, nice piece. Good to see everyone thinking so hard on a Friday.

My music analogy was supposed to be funny and only somewhat appropriate, but i'm glad it has got a few people thinking.

I'm cool with vegetarians and vegans, many of my friends follow those diets. I myself was vegetarian for awhile. I don't want to knock anyone on what they choose to eat (well, scratch that, i can rail all day against corporate fast food and all that but let's save that for later.) My point however is this: while I agree that you could cook for several lifetimes and create mind-blowing food without ever touching an animal product, I only have one lifetime to play out and when it comes to food, my expanding knowledge of cooking and developing a palate? I WANT IT ALL. If you don't want it all for whatever reason, it's all good, but I do. I'm just sayin'.

@misha! I have been reading down this very long thread and was thinking about Christina Pierillo. My daughter took a cooking class with her and bought her cookbooks home with her when she moved back home. I was skeptical when she started preparing her microbiotic dishes. I am a confirmed meat eater (and food snob) and I LOVED the dishes that my daughter cranked out. When she gets those cookbooks out I know that I am going to love it. I'm an easy 'crossover' eater.

Now on my soapbox- "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you" - stepping down.

@lyricanji, there's no set-in-stone definition of foodie. If someone ate nothing but rocks and vitamin pills, they could call themselves a foodie if they wanted to.

And seriously, if someone ate only animal products, chances are they'd end up with health issues that would make the foodie definition the least of their worries.

What about someone who has gluten intolerance and doesn't eat wheat, but works at a bakery and makes and sells beautiful breads and cakes? Is that person not a baker?

Some people call themselves foodies because they eat at restaurants and enjoy the food. Some people call themselves foodies because they cook wonderful things. Some people lack the means to eat out or to cook fantastic things, but they consider themselves foodies because they read food magazines and study ethnic cuisines.

And some people eat and cook and read and enjoy, but hate the foodie label. What difference does it make what other people eat or how they label themselves?

sailordave,

I think your analogy is close, but not quite right. I think being a vegetarian foodie is like being a music lover who doesn't like stringed instruments. Any of 'em. Being a foodie vegan is like being a music lover, but not liking stringed instruments, wind instruments, brass instruments or percussion. I guess a cappella music is nice... but it's hard to understand a music lover who dismisses all those other wonderful sounds.

5 days a week we eat a basically vegetarian diet. But there's simply no way I could give up the magical food-binding, sauce-emulsifying power of the egg. To those of us who will eat basically anything, veganism can seem a little empty. And extremely hard to understand.

But good luck to you vegan foodies! I may not understand you, but I wish you all well!

@BBQdude - I don't know, vegan food is very diverse and really the only thing hard to replicate is straight up meat. If you want a steak on a plate then vegetarianism can't really replicate that. Although I have made some seitan ribs that were pretty good and I used in a sandwich. I never ate much egg or cooked with much egg but really the only thing I can think of that can't be replicated (or is difficult to do so) is meringue which is something I never liked anyway.

There was also an interesting blog not too long ago that recreated Anthony Bourdain recipes but with all vegan ingredients. The people that did the recipes were quite creative, much more than myself. I don't know much about food science but in order to replicate textures, tastes, etc, it does take quite a bit of knowledge and I salute those that do it.

As long as you pay the tab, I could care less what you order.
It's all money to me.

@TimMoore: Would you claim that someone can declare themselves to be a music lover if they classify 75% of the worlds music as misogynistic or homophobic? Perhaps, but one with a narrow scope.

(keep in mind key ingredients like fish sauce and, dashi, and cooking styles like Chinese restaurant wok cooking where EVERYTHING touches meat products, or the scarcity of vegan desserts before you jump on my 75% number)

Maybe a better analogy: can you call yourself a fashion lover if you refuse to buy clothes made in sweat shops?

That might be just as controversial a question, though.

@peekpoke - As far as the "sinners" thing goes, I sincerely doubt any of the vegans or vegetarians attracted to sites like SE go into hysterics at the sight of hamburger. I haven't yet been elected vegan spokesperson, but I can't say that I've ever been offended by talk of bacon (though the fad annoys me a bit, as does the cupcake fad, especially when we get into bacon cupcakes, but that's a different issue) or butter or cheddar or any of the things I don't eat. I also am fine when dining companions order cheeseburgers, or when my roommates fill the fridge with milk and meat. I am much more horrified when I see someone using pancake syrup instead of Grade B maple!

If I'm offended by anything, it's being called (by proxy) tasteless, a douche bag, an idiot or a hypocrite in threads where vegan food comes up.

I'm not asking that vegan food be celebrated to the detriment of nonvegan food (nonvegan food is quite tasty - I didn't stop eating cheese because I dislike it), simply that ALL delicious food deserves equal celebration, and that vegan recipes shouldn't immediately be dismissed as somehow lesser than any and all recipes containing meat, eggs or dairy.

I've been following Mark Bittman "vegan after dinnertime" idea for three months, now, and I've discovered a whole new world of possibilities. If anything, it has expanded rather than shrinked my cooking landscape. Having said that, I have found that vegetarian recipes in cookbooks or magazines, are, very often, based on cheese and eggs, which make them vegan unfriendly (as if editors thought all non meat eaters were created equal). While these I'm considering on going vegetarian, I certainly would miss the traditions (both family and cultural ones) that sorround the foods I've grown up to love.

Also, I can't avoid mentioning that I have several vegetarian friends and acquaintances. As for moral choices, I know a couple of them who have cheated on their respective partners, so I would say that eating or not eating meat definitely is not the only moral standard and should not be viewed as such.

I became a vegan at sixty-one (I'm 61 and 1/2) out of sheer curiosity and a desire to reduce my negative impact on Mother Earth. I wanted to know what my childrens' friends were experiencing, what was piquing the interest of some respected authors and artists, what the Skinny Bitches of the world knew that I didn't, and, most of all, how one could cook well on a vegan regime. I've been having a ball with it! There are some anxious moments in the kitchen, since almost every meal is a wild experiment. And, I'll admit, traveling can be a hungry experience. Nevertheless, I'm not interested in going back to my carnivorous ways.

It's interesting to encounter the assumptions my acquaintances make about veganism: they seem to assume that I've got a moral stake in it somewhere, that I've gone uber-Buddhist, that I feel superior. They have trouble understanding that I might simply be exercising an option. They say it is good for the functioning and longevity of our cognition to learn new things in our senior years; since I spend a lot of time in the kitchen, I wondered how I might turn that time into a real challenge. I think I've found a way I can feel good about.

I'm blogging about it with what passes for dry Southern wit and shots at seasoned wisdom at http://www.maturelandscaping.com. Am I the only senior nouveau vegan extant?