Should Women Get Special Treatment at Restaurants?
At some restaurants, servers can electronically punch in “L” for “lady" to ensure the gals get their menus and meals first. But at the recently-opened bar Apiary in Manhattan, this isn't an option—and in this day and age, the management thinks that's just fine. This week, Frank Bruni weighed in on the gender role situation while dining.
Us ladies here at Serious Eats have been mulling it over. Here's what we think, after the jump.
Alaina: "I think following traditional dining etiquette is a fine way to structure interactions between diners and servers and can make the experience go more smoothly—it's a framework and a starting point. But good service is more than etiquette and service trumps etiquette, even for this chivalry-appreciating Southerner."
Robyn: "I don't think having a uterus entitles me to receiving any special treatment. Not that I mind it either. Some of my male friends are more feminine than I am—should they get served first? I don't really care. Just feed me!"
Hannah: "As a server, I try my best to feel out the diners. I will pour the taste for whoever orders the wine. I work in a casual place, so old-school formality does not come into play too much. I take the order from the person who orders first: man, woman, whatever! I do serve women first, hand them menus first, and such. Why not?"
"As a woman, I don't mind if a door is opened for me, or a chair pulled out. It's so rare to be treated thoughtfully that the chauvinistic origins of the particular etiquette seem less important than the fact that someone is actually trying to act considerately."
Erin: "I don't mind some chivalry every now and then, but if the guy gets served first, that doesn't bother me either. One thing I have noticed is I usually order for the table, so if it's just me and another guy, he might feel like I'm stepping on his manliness. But he should be able to prove his manliness in other ways. (Like still having enough room for dessert!)"
Ladies reading: let's hear what you think.
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18 Comments:
So what happens when the table is all ladies? Do they type in and "O" for "old" so the oldest gets served first?
beth1 at 8:51PM on 10/10/08
I don't care who gets served first, but I would care if a server automatically assumed the guy was ordering, picking the wine/drinks or paying.
piccola at 9:16PM on 10/10/08
Yeah, but isn't it also etiquette to wait until everyone has their food. That sometimes means that the food of whoever is served first gets kind of cold. That seems like something unwanted.
wunami at 11:12PM on 10/10/08
I don't care about who gets served first, who gets their menu first, who's asked for orders first, etc... that stuff is trivial. What DOES irritate me is that most of the time when I go out with my bf I'm paying, and 9 times out of 10 the waitress will take my card with the check, and then automatically hand it back to my bf for a signature. Why does everyone automatically assume he's paying? Its not that hard to look at the card, notice the name, and figure out its mine. That bothers the hell out of me.
erichan726 at 11:14PM on 10/10/08
I agree with erichan726. I am in charge of food and recreational expenses in my relationship. 90 percent of the time I hand the waiter or waitress my card or cash and he or she gives my boyfriend back the change, card holder, whatever. I have yet to call one of them on it. This happens in rural areas, towns, cities. I am not blaming the waiter or waitress because this is just industry standard behavior, leftover from the 1950s or something. However, if you are not sure whether or not I am using his card to pay for our meal, then please just set it down on the middle of the table and run. Logically, though....I handed the card to the waiter or waitress. He or she should assume I am in charge of the tip and act accordingly.
celeste24 at 12:39AM on 10/11/08
I should add that my real first name is Cassidy. This is a name that is not extremely common and is used by both males and females. So maybe this affects the way waiters act in this situation.
celeste24 at 12:42AM on 10/11/08
wunami: It means that the woman's plate gets put down first.
Chewy at 1:57AM on 10/11/08
Haha--ladies first: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TS_P2YKZVwc
I remember seeing this all through grade school as a kid ... then I grew up, found the DVD on eBay, and bought it.
Personally, I like when servers come to take orders and ask "who's ready?" I'm usually the last ready to order, but usually, when there's a guy at the table, he'll look at me and tell me to go ahead, at which point I decline. I don't mind not getting my plate first, either. It bothers me more when plates come one at a time across the span of ten minutes. Unfortunately, I'm usually last, and that's what pisses me off. ;)
OneWallKitchen at 3:10AM on 10/11/08
Well then. If the food comes at the same time and it's a matter of which plate is put down on the table first...then who the heck cares? But then again, I'm a guy...so I guess my vote doesn't really count here.
wunami at 8:05AM on 10/11/08
There are the rules that any good server must follow (as rules are generally made up for a reason and that reason is usually that it works and it is what the majority prefer) and then there is empathy and there is finesse.
The rules of 'who we are' is changing in our culture. We are not the women of the 1950's nor are the men the men of the 1950's. The rules of service have not changed all that much, however. So in order to make everyone really happy at any given table you've got to have a server who has empathy (ah . . . oh I remember so many tales on foodboards by servers who snark that they are in it for the money only and intend to get out of it ASAP and this does not breed empathy in a person) and finesse. I'm not sure how many people I know in general who are able to finesse situations 'on their feet' but it is not that high a number.
This stuff doesn't matter all that much in usual situations but it can matter in business situations where the meal is not all about the food but is instead more about balances of power and end-results that are partially based on how the people at the table act and how they are treated by staff.
As a woman, I love chivalry and am old-fashioned enough to enjoy that whole 'being treated like a lady' thing. Though sometimes it really is more like lip-service if you look too closely, within the global context of things. I guess I figure that if within our culture the guys are still sitting in the living room calling out for a beer when they want it - and when within our culture men do not carry an equal amount of the carework done in the home - then okay, at I'll take the 'You're a lady' stuff in return. Plus it is charming but that is neither here nor there for I've met charmers who turned out to be snakes. :) Heh heh.
In business situations there are ways to overcome the ingrained behavior of servers if one wants to, and if any woman wants to be taken really seriously she will have to learn these things and use them well.
What fun it all is.
foodvox at 9:17AM on 10/11/08
I should add that yes, @beth1 . . . older women will get served first in any group dining if traditional service rules are being followed. The oldest first.
Actually it's sort of funny in a way. :) Gotta feed 'em before they drop or something . . .
foodvox at 9:23AM on 10/11/08
so, lady's first, no?
tataia at 10:50AM on 10/11/08
Call me blonde, but I've absolutely never noticed this. Call me a New Yorker, but overt displays of chivalry kind of turn me off.
liwinegirl at 5:55PM on 10/11/08
I work at a casual dining establishment (a gastropub, actually). Honestly, we don't look at the credit card that often, nor does anywhere else that I know of. However, if you put the card down towards your side of the table, I will return it in the same fashion. If it is in the middle, back in the middle it goes. I try not to make this a big deal, so I just place the receipt in the same place the card was.
I would like to say that I pour beer out of ordered pitchers for every table, and the way I do that has caused problems. It becomes a problem when I pour the man's beer first. I always do this, and I have a reason...the first beer has more head. Therefore, the better beer is the second. I have had many men hand their first pour beer to their dates...but I do it for a reason. I am actually looking out for the woman and giving her the better pour. So, sometimes, your server has good intentions in mind. We are not always looking out for the money. (As much as people who have never been servers may think. I actually never think about how much I can squeeze out of a table...I offer dessert because we make delicious desserts. I offer more rounds because I like hanging out with you [or your dog]. It is never a money issue.)
brittj8585 at 10:53PM on 10/11/08
On a date, I'm usually asked first for my order. If I know what I want, I order first - if I'm close but need another minute, I'll ask that the server take the gentleman's order. (If I don't know him well and he's paying, I might base my order on his - especially regarding price point). If we aren't ready, they come back. Same applies for a group. I appreciate the chivalrous intent. If my dining companion isn't a wine drinker, they often defer the first taste to me. I can be chivalrous too, and offer......hehe.
If I'm taking a gentleman out for dinner (could be friend, sweetie, brother,client), I'll find a way to let the server know to give me the check. I'll slip my credit card under my hand, catch the server's eye, and make sure they see it. Same goes if I'm treating a friend and I don't want to have to fight for the check. My guest usually doesn't know or hear, but the servers have never forgotten. I think it's only fair to give an indication before-hand, as it's a little uncomfortable to have a bill sitting in the middle of the table and not knowing who is going to take it. In some situations, we've given them two cards and asked them to split the bill.
I'm a lady, and I appreciate being treated like a lady. That doesn't mean I never pay. I get very annoyed if a course is being served, and there is a long wait for everyone at the table to get their food, as it's rude to start eating in that case. I'd rather it sit in the kitchen until all are served at one time. It had better be the right temp when it reaches me, however. The order in which the plates are delivered makes no difference, as long as they are all ready.
So, do I expect special treatment? Yes, but just a little?
PerkyMac at 4:49PM on 10/12/08
@OneWallKitchen, I love Free to Be You and Me!
I don't see why it matters at this point. Especially if the food comes out at once, who cares what plate is set down first? And no assumptions should be made as to who is paying, etc. As long as the service is prompt and polite, women don't have to be first. I agree, Robyn, just feed me!!
Laurel E at 5:52PM on 10/12/08
I really can't believe this is even a question. I'll hold the door open for my (male) coworkers if we're going somewhere for lunch, because it's a nice thing to do -- I don't expect doors to constantly be held for me, and quite frankly I'd think it were odd if they always were. Same with ladies at the table being asked for their orders before the men. Whoever is ready to order first should order first.
The only point I can agree to here is the inappropriateness of the check automatically being handed to the man at the table. It should go back to the middle of the table unless one diner handed the server the check, then back to him/her.
anysuchname at 1:01AM on 10/13/08
yes, I strongly agree with the bill paying nonsense frustration. Whenever I eat at a slightly more upscale restaurant with a man of any kind, boyfriend, platonic friend, father, gay friend, etc., the man is always handed the bill, both before and after the credit card is put down. Even when it's my credit card!!! This drives me crazy. Grr. And I live in New York City!!
For a while I was convinced that this was society's subtle way of saying I shouldn't pay for any meals, haha. But seriously, sometimes I am paying (and generally for my half), and this behavior really bugs me.
NYminknit at 11:01AM on 10/13/08